Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I have read the entire discussion. I want it to be clear that I have no dog in this fight. There have been some that have tried to be objective and fair. And, then . . . the protagonists on each side of the issue who have strong beliefs and biases. My comment is that the purchase of a boat is largely an emotional event aside from dollars exchanged. It represents a person's dreams, imaginings, hopes, and fears. It usually follows a period of financial sacrifice and planning before the purchase and a commitment from usually more than one person. It is made with countless years of experience or with little or none. It requires a dedicated captain to maintain it to Bristol standards and a relenting, persistent,ongoing expense. And, irrespective of cost, builder or size, it ceases to be an inanimate object but rather a living force that represents something about ourselves that separates us from the crowd and touches us in a place that most non boaters will never understand. So, owning a boat has been one of the most positive, rewarding and fulfilling things in my life from sailing prams, canoes, duck boats, fishing boats and sailboats. I am happy for those who share my love of boats and wish them good luck and good sailing. Rognvald

Well written, a new member of the Weavis book Club

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

I'm getting them from friends on Facebook, and I'm not posting who because I don't want them bombarded with Hunter-nuts with chips on their shoulders.

I normally respect and enjoy your intelligent posts, but to insinuate that I'm holding out on proof or extra pics for some reason is asinine.

No new pics today, but while I looking I found some I wanted to post but hadn't yet.

I fully understand your reasoning for no links and tend to agree. I don't doubt a cleat could have ripped out but it seems we are so close, image wise, I thought maybe you had access to a better one.. Hopefully an image will turn up soon...

[Greatketch33]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I have read the entire discussion. I want it to be clear that I have no dog in this fight. There have been some that have tried to be objective and fair. And, then . . . the protagonists on each side of the issue who have strong beliefs and biases. My comment is that the purchase of a boat is largely an emotional event aside from dollars exchanged. It represents a person's dreams, imaginings, hopes, and fears. It usually follows a period of financial sacrifice and planning before the purchase and a commitment from usually more than one person. It is made with countless years of experience or with little or none. It requires a dedicated captain to maintain it to Bristol standards and a relenting, persistent,ongoing expense. And, irrespective of cost, builder or size, it ceases to be an inanimate object but rather a living force that represents something about ourselves that separates us from the crowd and touches us in a place that most non boaters will never understand. So, owning a boat has been one of the most positive, rewarding and fulfilling things in my life from sailing prams, canoes, duck boats, fishing boats and sailboats. I am happy for those who share my love of boats and wish them good luck and good sailing. Rognvald

Agreed, well written and expressed. Emotional content is also most likely part of our community to debate in such a dynamic manner. Cheers!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I have read the entire discussion. I want it to be clear that I have no dog in this fight. There have been some that have tried to be objective and fair. And, then . . . the protagonists on each side of the issue who have strong beliefs and biases. My comment is that the purchase of a boat is largely an emotional event aside from dollars exchanged. It represents a person's dreams, imaginings, hopes, and fears. It usually follows a period of financial sacrifice and planning before the purchase and a commitment from usually more than one person. It is made with countless years of experience or with little or none. It requires a dedicated captain to maintain it to Bristol standards and a relenting, persistent,ongoing expense. And, irrespective of cost, builder or size, it ceases to be an inanimate object but rather a living force that represents something about ourselves that separates us from the crowd and touches us in a place that most non boaters will never understand. So, owning a boat has been one of the most positive, rewarding and fulfilling things in my life from sailing prams, canoes, duck boats, fishing boats and sailboats. I am happy for those who share my love of boats and wish them good luck and good sailing. Rognvald

Rog - I understand the emotional. The key in these discussions, however, is to try to keep things factual...despite the emotions. That usually makes for a much better and much more educational discussion.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

That is funny!! OK I admit it I am a follower, I've tried to quit and have even gone through a 10 step program of factor tours at HR, Oyster and Contest but I still can't seem to stop my deep desire to own a Hunter. Smack is like a god to me and leads me in places I have never been, its like I can't seem to get through a day without his guidance!
I'm going to give it another try, tomorrow!!

Hey Robert,

I just happen to live about 10 miles from the Hunter plant. If you can't shake the habit and feel the need to feed your addiction come on by. I'll put you up in the spare room for a couple of days so you go do the tour.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Rog - I understand the emotional. The key in these discussions, however, is to try to keep things factual...despite the emotions. That usually makes for a much better and much more educational discussion.

Give the guy a break Smack, who is the purveyor of facts in this thread? 99% of the facts are actually opinions written in such a way as to suggest its factual.

But here is a question for you: you have given huge amounts of time and energy to post threads about the wonders of modern boat building but where the rubber meets the road you own a 25 year old boat yourself. Why didn't you step up and take some of your own advice??

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by colemj

I don't understand how that would help. It wouldn't counteract side forces or down forces (the problems others are jumping on here). It is an interesting idea for flying an assym, though.

Why would a solid rod in support not aid in counteracting downward forces imparted at the end of the roller?

I'm not suggesting that such an add-on would turn one of those Hunter cantilevers into a bulletproof arrangement, and it would certainly do nothing to strengthen the roller against side loading. I'm only suggesting that such a modification would be a 'Better than Nothing' fix, and certainly an improvement on the way the boat comes from the factory... And because such a rod would be so vertical in its orientation, it would pose no obstruction to the clean retrieval of the anchor, in the way that a bobstay on a much longer, 'traditional' bowsprit often does...

We're starting to see such arrangements on some of the modern plumb bows today... This is not the best example, but the sort of support X-Yachts are lending to their anchor platforms gives an idea what I'm talking about (although, in the case of these boats, I'd guess those support struts are likely more about dealing with the forces exerted by flying gennakers or Code 0s from that sprit)...






OK, here's a better example... Hell, even Bavaria has the right idea :-)

Originally Posted by colemj

I won't argue that that Hunter bow roller implementation is the be all - but I do argue the point that a bow roller should be relied upon for anchoring forces, particularly those when all hell breaks loose.

Unless it is on a production boat, of course.

Mark

Of course, it's a given that the load should always be taken off the rollers when anchored...

What many seem to overlook, however, that there may often come a time when during the course of anchor retrieval - if one is forced to bug out of an anchorage during a rising gale, for instance - there is no getting around having the roller subjected to enormous forces and snatching loads...

I believe that is likely what occurred with the Hunter Passage 42 that went on the beach that I pictured above... At a certain point, the owner did attempt to raise anchor and get out of there, but the chain jumped off the roller, and it was game over, for him...

Even in relatively moderate conditions, simply getting a well-hooked anchor off the bottom can seriously stress even the most robust anchor rollers... Drake on Paragon posted a video recently of his chain getting caught on some obstruction while anchored off the 79th Street Boat Basin in the Hudson River... He was very concerned - and rightly so - about the enormous loads that were placed on his bowsprit as he tried to break the chain free, and I can only have serious doubts as to whether the roller on that Passage 42 would have been up to such a task, without something 'giving' during the attempt...

[weavis]

[avb3]

An independent review of one of those production boats, this one a Hunter 36.

Boat review: Hunter Legend 36 - Yachting Monthly

Quality?

Their comments:

The standard of fit-out below wasn’t necessarily the highest quality, but is mitigated by a comprehensive standard inventory and many home comforts not normally found on a production cruiser of that era......

They say a lot of nice things about it, but end with this conclusion:

In all, she is a competent sailing yacht, easily handled and fun to sail. Although her wide, open cockpit and shallow coamings wouldn’t inspire confidence in extreme conditions, as a marina-hopping weekender she offers all the comforts of a modern, spacious seaside apartment with bags of room for guests.

And it is exactly the bolded that most would agree with. The boat addresses the market it is designed to appeal to. Great marketing, and it works for them.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

You keep bringing this up - and we've talked about it before on another forum. So, either you continue to disbelieve what Micheal himself clearly said for whatever reason, or yet again you're not being honest. Here is what Micheal said about why they were moving on to the skutsje:

...

Micheal had nothing but praise for the boat. His biggest complaint was how it was commissioned by the yard guys that did the work:

Well, most would expect nothing less, about a boat he was attempting to SELL...

:-))

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This is what I mean about this "beef it up at any cost" mentality. As cole pointed out, how does your new bobstay (which you just complained about on the CR) aid in the lateral forces you were just saying above were the biggest problem on the Hunter's bow-roller?

When you guys look at beefing anything and everything up as "upgrades" - when you don't really understand the engineering behind what's there and what forces it's intended for - it's not necessarily an "upgrade". It's just adding stuff you "guess" needs to be there.

I dunno, seems to me you might be the more likely candidate for a bit of Night School or online refresher course in Engineering, if you really believe some of these Hunter anchor rollers "perfectly suited", or "built just right" for the rigors of extended voyaging...

It you really think the ratio of the length of unsupported projection of an anchor roller such as this...





...relative to the percentage of the fitting that is actually attached to that tiny bit of real estate forward of the locker lid that constitutes the foredeck...





...to be an example of 'sound "engineering', well... I suggest you do a bit of Googling, and acquaint yourself with the concept of LEVERAGE...

:-))

[RTB]

My Hunter doesn't even have bow cleats to break, only a stout Sampson post. Seems to me, it's not possible to include all years and models under one roof, and pretty pointless to be having this discussion with out hard facts (unless someone has proof of the lost cleat on the sunken boat). No doubt any thread with Hunter in the title sure stirs a few players on a regular basis here at CF. I honestly don't get it....




No question about it. No way my boat would have been moored there if the forecast was even close to what happened.

Ralph

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by RTB

My Hunter doesn't even have bow cleats to break, only a stout Sampson post. Seems to me, it's not possible to include all years and models under one roof, and pretty pointless to be having this discussion with out hard facts (unless someone has proof of the lost cleat on the sunken boat). No doubt any thread with Hunter in the title sure stirs a few players on a regular basis here at CF. I honestly don't get it....

Attachment 95091


No question about it. No way my boat would have been moored there if the forecast was even close to what happened.

Ralph

Ralph, this seems to have escaped both the fans and the detractors, and to me it pretty well removes any sense from the arguments. To use one example of a 49 foot Hunter's voyaging as proof that lesser models from the same factory are seaworthy is not convincing. Equally, to use the demise of one operated by an inexperienced nut-case as a damning example is also folly.

My opinion? I think that current model Hunters as well as the other subject mass produced boats are quite well capable of making off shore passages in reasonable safety in the hands of a competent sailor. I don't think they are the best choices for sailing into areas of known difficult conditions. I do not think that the anchoring setups, including the long cantilevered rollers, are good designs for folks who intend lots of anchoring in potentially exposed anchorages (which is kinda the definition of long range cruisers). As shown, the windlass/chain locker setups are awkward and poorly organized, as others have mentioned.

Finally, I don't agree that the anchor roller should not be used to take the strain from one's snubber. A well designed roller should be easily strong enough to absorb those loads, and in our thousands of anchorings over the past 28 years we have always lead the snubber over the roller. We have experienced zero damage as a result of this practice. It should be obvious that far greater loads are experienced when breaking out the anchor in pitching conditions (where practical considerations may preclude the loads being taken by the snubber as they should be).

Oh... all rollers should incorporate some means of preventing the chain/snubber from jumping out, as apparently happened to the beached Hinter. I can't imagine why this would not be included in any roller design.

Cheers,

Jim

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Even in relatively moderate conditions, simply getting a well-hooked anchor off the bottom can seriously stress even the most robust anchor rollers... Drake on Paragon posted a video recently of his chain getting caught on some obstruction while anchored off the 79th Street Boat Basin in the Hudson River... He was very concerned - and rightly so - about the enormous loads that were placed on his bowsprit as he tried to break the chain free, and I can only have serious doubts as to whether the roller on that Passage 42 would have been up to such a task, without something 'giving' during the attempt...

Drake's bowsprit was woefully under-designed to contend with this beauty:

[robert sailor]

A boom bail from a small dink fits perfectly over the end of our roller and prevents the chain from jumping out. I too run my snubber over the bow roller to a cleat and the bow roller and structure should be robust. Its an area that is often under built on newer boats

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Well, most would expect nothing less, about a boat he was attempting to SELL...:-))

So you're going to continue to imply that Micheal's lying about all of this. Wow. Okay.

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I dunno, seems to me you might be the more likely candidate for a bit of Night School or online refresher course in Engineering, if you really believe some of these Hunter anchor rollers "perfectly suited", or "built just right" for the rigors of extended voyaging...:-))

I didn't say that, I said this:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

When you guys look at beefing anything and everything up as "upgrades" - when you don't really understand the engineering behind what's there and what forces it's intended for - it's not necessarily an "upgrade". It's just adding stuff you "guess" needs to be there.

You guys can point out all the fender washers you want - but unless we are seeing common failures of these areas under the standard use-cases for these boats...they are actually designed and built just right.

What's interesting, however, about Micheal's case is his boat, without much "beefing up", stood up to just about as "rigorous" conditions as even you can find across 20,000 miles of ocean - including the Southern Ocean. Maybe you've tested your own boat in an F10/11 near Cape Horn. I don't know. But his "unsoundly engineered" Hunter did very, very well.

I understand leverage. And thus far, you have very little of it in this particular debate.