Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

It would be an excellent idea for you to beef up the bow roller on your boat before heading out full-time. Your boat having survived a Cat 1 hurricane at a mooring with no one aboard is quite different than you and your wife weathering 50-60 knot winds at anchor inside the boat, in an unsheltered anchorage, lee shore, with the boat sailing back and forth attached to the anchor and chain.

…...


The key difference between having your boat secured at a mooring and at anchor, is that with your full rode set at 10:1, your boat will most likely be sailing back and forth quite a lot putting a tremendous sideways strain on your bow roller and forward deck structure. Unless you've already ridden this out at an anchorage, it's best you listen and learn from those who have.

No bow roller, regardless of its strength and design should be used to primarily take the strain of anchoring. Its only purpose is to provide ease of deployment/retrieval and a place to store the anchor. A snubber should be used to bring the point of force to a more suitable location and connection.

I suppose the rollers on those long bow sprits on those lauded "bluewater" boats are OK, though?

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Probably me, we have an ongoing love-hate relationship.

Nah, its me - he already has my money

Mark

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes, of course, but going with the most obvious candidate eliminates all the suspense.

It is a list too; that implies multiple candidates. I'm sure we'll never know, as that would probably break forum rules. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

Originally Posted by minaret

Oh come on, you can't just come out and say something like this without telling us who's on the List! Now I'm dying to know....

You can email me the answer privately.......... I will never tell

[Maine Sail]

What is hard for me to grasp is that you clearly have some access to these images that don't seem to want to share with us?

We now have two shots of the recovered boat just inches from being able to see the cleats but none that do. I have a suspicion that there are images that show the cleats but we just are not being made privy to them.

How about a link to where these photos were found, who took them and links to where the rest of the images are. How about a link to this mysterious Facebook page..?

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Here she is, the Hunter is back

It was a comment somebody left on a Facebook post of the Hunter underwater. I tried to copy it verbatim but either I can't find it or it's been removed.

It said something like "I know the guy who owns this boat and they are good sailors. A cleat failed and they had to abandon ship at 3am"

Anyhow, it's gone, so it's likely due to insurance reasons or just being totally wrong.

The thread is titled as it is because that's the info I got. I am continuing to update the thread as I get more info, for those of you that are interested.

Here's another pic of the Hunter for those with super zoom skills and underwater filters.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

What is hard for me to grasp is that the OP has some access to these images that he won't share with us. We have multiple shots of the boat just inches from being able to see the cleats but none that do. I have a suspicion there are images that show teh cleats but we just are not being made privy to them.

So: How about a link to where these photos were found, who took them and where the rest of the images are.....

Logic would ruin it for me.

[minaret]

Anyone notice the fender washers instead of a backing plate on the bow roller bolts?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by minaret

Anyone notice the fender washers instead of a backing plate on the bow roller bolts?

Yep i do, and the forestay chainplate is the bow roller to,, SS plate...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by minaret

Anyone notice the fender washers instead of a backing plate on the bow roller bolts?

How can you see that area in the pic? It is underneath the roller. Or was that a joke?

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yep i do

Is this you?

Mark

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Here's the bow roller of a Hunter pulling up some nasty stuff near Puerto Eden, Chile as it makes its way to Cape Horn.



They even have a full cockpit enclosure. Don't know how they managed...

Oh - and here you can see that they still haven't added that 3/16" SS plating inside the anchor locker to protect the hull from getting chewed up by a chain when they land on a beach in a hurricane.

I dunno, looks like a pretty awkward setup, to me... :-) That combination of the extreme forward projection of the roller, the gaping hole in the foredeck, and the foot switches several feet aft of the stem - not the ideal configuration to be dealing with unfouling that anchor, clearing it of kelp, and whatnot... Sure hope Michael had a handheld remote to help him out, there...

I know these belowdeck windlass mounting setups are all the rage these days, but I don't like them at all... Particularly with a vertical windlass, the lead of the chain onto the gypsy can often be rather unfair, and that would appear to be the case with SEQUITUR's setup, unless that windlass was mounted at a slight angle... But if you ever have a chain jam in one of those wells, it can be pretty awkward to deal with... And, in the event you might have to resort to grinding your rode up manually with a winch handle, the placement of that windlass below deck level would fatigue most of us in very short order... No wonder Michael got a bit more creative with using the cockpit winches, instead... :-)




Aground with Broken Windlass and Engine Linkage in Caleta Olla, Chile | SEQUITUR


As downunder already noted, I seem to recall Michael's problem with his windlass was one of his primary reasons for not continuing towards Cape Town from the Falklands... No question about it, Michael & Edi's voyage was a most impressive one, they sailed to a part of the world few of us - not to mention fewer Hunters - will likely ever manage. But I think you fail to see your touting of the boat's capability in a larger context, which might call into question its suitability for an east about circumnavigation via the great capes or high latitude voyaging... Of course, there can always be other factors at play for such a change of plans, and I certainly don't wish to imply that their decision constituted any 'failure' on their part... But, the bottom line is, they aborted their planned circumnavigation after the first cape was passed, and sailed pretty directly back to the States, and put the boat immediately up for sale... So, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for some to wonder whether some issues with the boat itself just MIGHT have been a factor in their change of heart...

:-)

[neilpride]

I think Minaret is pointing on those bolts..

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

What is hard for me to grasp is that you clearly have some access to these images that don't seem to want to share with us?

We now have two shots of the recovered boat just inches from being able to see the cleats but none that do. I have a suspicion that there are images that show the cleats but we just are not being made privy to them.

How about a link to where these photos were found, who took them and links to where the rest of the images are. How about a link to this mysterious Facebook page..?

I'm getting them from friends on Facebook, and I'm not posting who because I don't want them bombarded with Hunter-nuts with chips on their shoulders.

I normally respect and enjoy your intelligent posts, but to insinuate that I'm holding out on proof or extra pics for some reason is asinine.

No new pics today, but while I looking I found some I wanted to post but hadn't yet. Here's one of the big power boats, looks like mooring line failure due to lack of seamanship.

This boat got hit by a boat heading for the beach


Here you can see a mess on the bow mooring line, and it appears to have chaffed through or otherwise parted


Looks like the stern line likely chaffed on the swim step

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I think Minaret is pointing on those bolts..

Yes, those would (obviously) be the bolts in question. Seeing as how they hold on the bow roller, which is also the chainplate, one would think a backing plate in order. But I suppose if a bolt with fender washer is already stronger than the hull, what's the point?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by downunder

One thing Sequitur's owner found out for certain on that trip around the Horn was that his anchor winch was not up to the riqours of the conditions. (How many times did be have to repair his winch??) The weakest link generally fails first and those pictures are of a 49ft Hunter so I imagine the laminates in the bow are considerably beefier than the Hunter that ended up on the beach and quite possibly far removed from the structure of the vessel on the beach. They would need to be.

Smack, using pictures of a different vessel is misleading when you did not indicate it was a different vessel.

Sorry about that. I thought it was clear that this was a different Hunter than the one on the beach.

In any case, my point in showing those photos was to show another bow roller that was "dangerously too long" that seemed to do just fine in a very remote, challenging part of the world.

Yes, their windlass was a nightmare. No doubt. I don't recall issues with their engine - but more problems with the linkage for the transmission.

And there were many other problems with their various add-on systems that they had to deal with, to which Micheal attributed the blame to the yard guys who did the commissioning of the boat.

Regardless of all that - this "long-snouted, poorly reinforced, lightly-built, coastal" Hunter certainly kicked some blue water butt with no structural damage whatsoever. They can't be as bad as these heavy boat owners make them out to be. Even with fender washers here and there.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by colemj

No bow roller, regardless of its strength and design should be used to primarily take the strain of anchoring. Its only purpose is to provide ease of deployment/retrieval and a place to store the anchor. A snubber should be used to bring the point of force to a more suitable location and connection.

I suppose the rollers on those long bow sprits on those lauded "bluewater" boats are OK, though?

Mark

Well, not in my opinion... Another of my Least Favorite Features on the Valiant I just took south, as a matter of fact... :-)

Even worse is the arrangement on a Cabo Rico 42 I've sailed quite a bit in recent years... A wonderful boat in many respects, but the anchoring setup would drive me nuts in short order... I don't think I've ever raised the anchor on that thing without it wanting to hook itself on the bobstay, or something... One thing that I value highly, is the ability to deploy a Big Bertha - in the form of a large Northill or Luke style storm anchor - in the event conditions should ever warrant... I just don't see how one would manage to do so, even the simple removal of the primary anchor is a very awkward chore, with a setup like this. (pic is not mine, but of a different CR 42)





The thing I can't understand about the prods like that on the Hunter 49, is why the builder simply doesn't add a solid bobstay-style rod to give it some additional support? As is done on many boats like the Saga 43, for example... This simple modification would afford the additional benefit of being able to use the roller as an attachment point for an asymetrical or gennaker, and yet I've never noticed anyone do this... Few upgrades could be easier, no?