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Old 04-01-2015, 13:55   #121
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Greatketch33 View Post
Me too. Too much talk about one particular type of boat on thread - IMHO.

What can we learn from this tragedy?
Agreed. I think MaineSail nailed it:

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
It looks as if the rudder caught the mooring line of the power boat off its stern.. Perhaps this caused damage to the rudder which then sank the boat..?? A cleat that failed on deck should not sink a boat...
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Old 04-01-2015, 14:04   #122
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I think you have a bit of an obsession with him. You seem to see him, and attribute things to him, everywhere.

Are you one of his followers?

Mark
He sure seems to be. He's like an amorous mosquito. It's getting embarrassing.
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Old 04-01-2015, 14:07   #123
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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There is another poster on this thread, Jon Eisberg, who can sponsor you in your rehab. He shook a similar monkey off his back a few years ago.

Although seeing him pop up on CF inside Smackdaddy threads may suggest he has found a new addiction...

Mark
Now THAT'S funny. JonE and I go round-and-round over on SN. It mostly started with the Salty Dawg Debacle...ahm...Rally.

But he's great. I seriously respect the dude. I just rarely agree with him.
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Old 04-01-2015, 14:11   #124
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Humm.. Thats what im trying to say, i dont point the contrary, a main traveler should stay firmly attached to the deck , and a cleat to, or a winch.
Neil - here is an honest question: After now learning that Hunter glasses backing plates in, are you certain there was no glassed-in backing plate on that Bene you showed the pics of? If there was a glassed-in plate, that would certainly explain the visible presence of only the washers.
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Old 04-01-2015, 14:15   #125
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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You mean comments like this from Smackdaddy?
Not even close but I would hope you know that.
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Old 04-01-2015, 14:17   #126
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Agreed. I think MaineSail nailed it:
It also could have been banging off another boat and damaged the stern area / swim platform or even the bow near the waterline. Personally I don't think the cleat failed and hopefully when they raise the boat someone can show visual photo graphic proof of whether it did or did not. My money is on the cleat still being there and the pendant or mooring failed.....

Many of the other boats, washed up on shore, still had the pendants and this suggests a mooring system failure as chafe would normally occur at the boat end.. The trawler had at least 12-15 feet of intact pendant visible. I would further suspect a mooring failure or pendant failure than a cleat failure...

I have personally seen entire chunks of dry deck ripped right out of the boat with only fender washers holding the cleat... This was from a boat that was tied to a dock during a Nor'Easter...
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Old 04-01-2015, 15:00   #127
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
It also could have been banging off another boat and damaged the stern area / swim platform or even the bow near the waterline. Personally I don't think the cleat failed and hopefully when they raise the boat someone can show visual photo graphic proof of whether it did or did not. My money is on the cleat still being there and the pendant or mooring failed.....

Many of the other boats, washed up on shore, still had the pendants and this suggests a mooring system failure as chafe would normally occur at the boat end.. The trawler had at least 12-15 feet of intact pendant visible. I would further suspect a mooring failure or pendant failure than a cleat failure...

I have personally seen entire chunks of dry deck ripped right out of the boat with only fender washers holding the cleat... This was from a boat that was tied to a dock during a Nor'Easter...
Don't you have video somewhere of you riding out a nasty blow on your boat?
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Old 04-01-2015, 15:55   #128
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Chrisgo View Post
Here is an excerpt from the manual of a 33 Hunter, 2005. The vessel in the original post looks to be one generation older, and a somewhat larger.

Hunter makes it quite clear what the breaking strength of the cleat is, (8947.4 Pf), and also interestingly, states that the strength of lines/chains shall not exceed 80% of the breaking point of the cleat. I believe this is to move the failure point to the line/chain, which is to say that if the boat is about to break loose, it stands a better chance of survival with the hull being intact.

The manual does not indicate the presence of backing plates.

Can anyone post the breaking points of a more stout boat for discussion?
That is an interesting document... I guess that one of the features of buying a new mass production boat is an owner's manual with info like this in it.

I am particularly impressed with the confidence with which they quote the breaking strength of the "strong points" to FIVE significant figures!! That's to one tenth of a pound force! No doubt they expect one to measure the breaking strength of one's dock lines to a similar accuracy/precision in order to follow their 80% rule.

I'm sure that the engineers in the audience will see how silly those numbers are. I applaud the idea of giving some idea of the strength of various bits on a boat, but think that a more realistic quotation would make me trust the numbers more!

On the Avalon Harbour moorings... quite some years ago now, I read that the going price for a Catalina Island mooring was in the tens of thousands of dollars! I'm not sure exactly what that bought, but I think it was the permit to establish a mooring which you then had to supply and maintain yourself. As I understood it, when you were not using it, the mooring company rented it out for day use and kept the money raised. What a deal for the boat owner: spend huge money to be able to leave your boat in a death trap!

Over the years there have been several Santa Ana blows that brought many boats to grief in the Channel Islands. IIRC there was one on a Thanksgiving weekend that wrecked a number of boats and had loss of life involved. Sad, especially when one notes that the conditions that lead to them are well known, and the precursor conditions are fairly easy to see in time to make one's escape from the anchorages at risk.

I too will be interested in further info on the real cause of the subject vessel's sinking. For now, speculation is meaningless.

Jim
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Old 04-01-2015, 15:56   #129
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Here she is, the Hunter is back

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Old 04-01-2015, 16:19   #130
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Last month I installed cleats on my aluminum sailboat. It never had cleats, custom build and the reasons are not relevant.
I installed 10" aluminum cleats..the biggest that would fit the dock lines appropriate for the boat's displacement.
The deck is 3/8" aluminum and I installed 3/8" 6061 backing plates. I think its strong enough for all but catastrophic events.
Having said that, the message of this tragedy is that an Avalon mooring is not the place to be in a gale. Not for a plastic coastal cruiser.



Sent from an undisclosed location on the high seas or from the lounge chair by the pool, you decide.
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Old 04-01-2015, 16:21   #131
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
On many boats, even the most stoutly constructed mooring cleats can be problematic as an attachment point for a drogue bridle... Don Jordan himself recommended the installation of dedicated chainplates at the quarters, instead...

Some further explanation from John Harries:

Jordan Series Drogue Deployment System On Expedition Sailboat




The drogue chainplates are angled slightly to be more in line with the expected loads on my own little Bluewater Pretender... :-)


I do agree with you that drouges and sea anchors may need even stronger and specially built mounts.
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Old 04-01-2015, 16:30   #132
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
I do agree with you that drouges and sea anchors may need even stronger and specially built mounts.

For a once in a lifetime occurence?

Could use creativity too and run the line around the cleats and back to the primary winches taking some of the strain.
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Old 04-01-2015, 16:47   #133
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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For a once in a lifetime occurence?

Could use creativity too and run the line around the cleats and back to the primary winches taking some of the strain.

Personal choice i guess.

Here is a link to Dave from Maxing Out's website where he modified his Privilege 39 catamaran for storm conditions.

STORM MANAGEMENT FOR CRUISERS
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Old 04-01-2015, 16:47   #134
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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There is another poster on this thread, Jon Eisberg, who can sponsor you in your rehab. He shook a similar monkey off his back a few years ago.

Although seeing him pop up on CF inside Smackdaddy threads may suggest he has found a new addiction...

Mark
Nah, as smack has said, we've been dance partners over on SN for quite some time :-) Considering how strenuously we disagree on just about everything, I'd say we've managed to keep it all pretty civil and good natured... I'd gladly buy the first round, should our paths ever cross...

Funny thing is, yesterday was the first time I'd popped in here in quite some time... Had it not been for the abysmal weather this weekend here in NJ, I would have had a few better things to do... but, yeah, one of Smack's "Production vs Bluewater Boats" threads, that's like catnip to a gasbag like me...

So, blame it on the weather... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

:-)
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Old 04-01-2015, 17:54   #135
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27 View Post
Here she is, the Hunter is back

Do you have a link to any more pics or where that one was found? When you zoom it it looks as if a bit of the stbd mooring pendant is still attached but other images may be easier to make out..
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