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Old 04-01-2015, 05:19   #91
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
As much fun as it apparently is to bash Hunters, I think that there are a LOT of boats out there that could benefit from larger cleats and backing plates. I have no idea whether Hunters are among them though. I also think that Smack and others have raised a good point about looking at the whole system rather than just one part of it when considering changes. I replaced the bow and stern cleats on my Nordic 44 because they were low profile aluminum ones that I had a hard time getting a couple dock lines or a beefy mooring pennant securely onto. So, I replaced all 4 with bigger, stainless steel ones and had proper backing plates made for them. Another benefit of larger cleats is larger diameter bolts to hold them in place.

Smack also mentioned not depending on the bow cleat to hang his boat from the dock but that's pretty close to the forces your bow cleat can encounter in a bad storm. I saw my boat looking a lot like a submarine while on its mooring in an early spring storm that had 40 to 50 knot winds. The wind/waves were pushing on the front of the boat so hard that the mooring line was absolutely straight and was pulling the bow of the boat down slightly so the waves were regularly breaking around the mast, and the stern of my boat looked unnaturally high. I was safely on land and expected my boat to be there soon too but the next day was a beautiful calm one and when I visited my boat you'd never know anything had happened the day before. Oversized cleats with backing plates, oversized mooring and pennant, and kevlar chafe gear on the pennant over the normal chafe gear, and some luck.

I understand the concept of using washers as a "fuse" but don't think it's a very smart thing to do on a boat and don't believe that any manufacturer does it purposely. Does anyone really think builders do tests to see what forces are required to pull fender washers through their laminate? And if they don't do tests like that, then how would they know how to size the "fuse" fender washers? Things like cleats and travelers should all be anchored firmly in place with proper backing plates so the boat WILL just about hang from them if it's required. If you want to have a planned failure point, it should be whatever is fastened to the cleat such as the mooring pennant, not a part of the boat itself. If anyone fears that rugged cleats and proper backing plates will cause a large portion of their deck to be ripped out, they probably need a more ruggedly built boat.
I agree with you about the fender washers, you simply have to look at the higher quality built boats and see how they do the job. Cleats all have large SS backing plates on these boats. I don't really blame the entry level builders for using fender washers as 99% of these boats sit at docks in protected marinas and it does allow them to keep there costs down.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:07   #92
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

So I don't know nuttin bout fg boats. My cleats are welded to SS backers (~4 by 10) welded to the 3/16" deck steel. I did break a 10" cast cleat once by striking it a glancing blow with a hammer. Amazing how easily it snapped in half.

Anyway, Maybe this Practical Sailor article can add some objective evidence to the discussion. I know it's about stanchions, holding lifelines, but it would seem to define the general attitude towards workmanship, and strength.

Practical Sailor - A Better Way to Mount Hardware - Tips Article

Quote:
Improperly mounted stanchion and pulpit bases are a major cause of gelcoat cracks in the deck radiating from the attached hardware. The cracks are usually the result of un*equally stressed mounting fastenings or inadequate underdeck distribution of hardware loads. Frequently, a boat is received from the builder with local cracks already developed. Once the deck gets dirty enough, these minute cracks start to show up as tiny spider webs slightly darker than the surrounding deck gelcoat While repairing these cracks is a fairly difficult cosmetic fix, the underlying problem — poor mount*ing — is fairly easy to correct in most cases.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:15   #93
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

That really looks bad for Hunter when a newish Hunter sinks at it's mooring because of a cleat used to secure it breaks out.... especially bad when you consider that the surrounding much older power boats with open transoms seemed to have weathered the storm OK.... and are still floating.


So lets now add check all anchor cleats on Hunters to the growing list of issues on these blue water boats before you set off to circumnavigate on one.


1. Rudder
2. Keel & keel bolts
3. Rudder shaft
4. Deck mooring cleats


But no worries, it's not like any of these items are that important.... not. Of course I will add that anyone heading out in whatever boat they're on should check these items before an extended voyage. But... it does look bad when a boat sinks at it's mooring or in it's slip. Makes one wonder how it will perform under a load, out at sea... when there's no help around?
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:20   #94
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
That really looks bad for Hunter when a newish Hunter sinks at it's mooring because of a cleat used to secure it breaks out....
Again, there is absolutely no evidence of this except for the title of the thread.

Also missing in this discussion are the more honorable ways the other 7 (presumably non-Hunter) boats were lost.

And then we have thrown in now the sinking of a boat in its slip due to being the wrong kind of boat - when it is obvious the entire bow has been chewed off by a cement pier independent of any cleats, etc.

Agendas here are sooooo transparent.

Mark
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:21   #95
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Did Smack write this???? LOL
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:22   #96
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Given the number of people who have been killed by a flying cleat after it pulled out of a deck, there is some truly unsafe advice here in the post you quoted. A large heavy lump of metal attached to an elastic line under load should never ever come loose. Lives are at stake in this, I know of several fatalities myself.

Humm.. Thats what im trying to say, i dont point the contrary, a main traveler should stay firmly attached to the deck , and a cleat to, or a winch.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:25   #97
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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But no worries, it's not like any of these items are that important.... not. Of course I will add that anyone heading out in whatever boat they're on should check these items before an extended voyage. But... it does look bad when a boat sinks at it's mooring or in it's slip. Makes one wonder how it will perform under a load, out at sea... when there's no help around?
There was another thread about measuring one's private parts by the boat someone owns, while pursuing all possible opportunities to put down other people's boats.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:26   #98
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Did Smack write this???? LOL
If you are referring to my post, then no - I wrote it.

Do you have any evidence beyond the title of this thread how that Hunter sunk? Or even if a cleat did rip out?

Can you shed light on how the other 7 boats sank, and why they aren't being discussed in the same tones as the Hunter?

Personally, I don't find fault with people finding faults with Hunters or any other boats they can point to specific problems with.

However, in this case here, you people should be ashamed.

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Old 04-01-2015, 07:27   #99
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Jim,

Makes a good point about cleats being strong enough for drouges or sea anchors.

few vessels would have standard cleats adequate for these. Part of the bluewater preparing of any vessel.
On many boats, even the most stoutly constructed mooring cleats can be problematic as an attachment point for a drogue bridle... Don Jordan himself recommended the installation of dedicated chainplates at the quarters, instead...

Some further explanation from John Harries:

Jordan Series Drogue Deployment System On Expedition Sailboat




The drogue chainplates are angled slightly to be more in line with the expected loads on my own little Bluewater Pretender... :-)


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Old 04-01-2015, 07:37   #100
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Again, there is absolutely no evidence of this except for the title of the thread.

Also missing in this discussion are the more honorable ways the other 7 (presumably non-Hunter) boats were lost.

And then we have thrown in now the sinking of a boat in its slip due to being the wrong kind of boat - when it is obvious the entire bow has been chewed off by a cement pier independent of any cleats, etc.

Agendas here are sooooo transparent.

Mark
I was referring to Ken's post by the way. Sure all this is transparent, just entertainment when we really should be doing something of use! t is funny though that Smack starts this at the same time other Hunter issues pop up. Smacks style is to drag up some obscure picture or comment and then suggest that it is "dangerous" When a entry level boat sinks at sea or has an issue he will post a picture of a better built boat that has been blown ashore and that is his way of levelling the debate. I will give him credit where credit is due, you may learn nothing from these threads but god are they successful on the sheer numbers of posts.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:39   #101
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I was referring to Ken's post by the way. Sure all this is transparent, just entertainment when we really should be doing something of use! t is funny though that Smack starts this at the same time other Hunter issues pop up. Smacks style is to drag up some obscure picture or comment and then suggest that it is "dangerous" When a entry level boat sinks at sea or has an issue he will post a picture of a better built boat that has been blown ashore and that is his way of levelling the debate. I will give him credit where credit is due, you may learn nothing from these threads but god are they successful on the shear numbers of posts.
Are you on the correct thread? Smackdaddy didn't start this one, unless you know something about the OP's real name.

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Old 04-01-2015, 07:49   #102
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I dated a woman who had a Hunter.
Didnt like horses too much so the relationship foundered due to a lack of mutual interests.
We didnt fall out about it, we just moved on with our lives.
The present girlfriend likes sailing...... (phone.. one second.....B.R.B.)

OK the ex girlfriend really didnt like sailing and only did it to please me.

Life eh?!
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:49   #103
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

No you are right its not his post of course but it has morphed into part of his post because of the name Hunter.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:52   #104
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I dated a woman who had a Hunter.
Didnt like horses too much so the relationship foundered due to a lack of mutual interests.
We didnt fall out about it, we just moved on with our lives.
The present girlfriend likes sailing...... (phone.. one second.....B.R.B.)

OK the ex girlfriend really didnt like sailing and only did it to please me.

Life eh?!
Geeez lots of laughs while I sit in this bloody lagoon waiting for a new engine. I better get out and start to do something but I do enjoy the banter and the laughs...good group here!!
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:56   #105
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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No you are right its not his post of course but it has morphed into part of his post because of the name Hunter.
I think you have a bit of an obsession with him. You seem to see him, and attribute things to him, everywhere.

Are you one of his followers?

Mark
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