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Old 03-01-2015, 21:18   #76
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
RTB "My Hunter rode out hurricane Ike (Cat 2) in Baytown, and no cleats pulled out."

What size were the waves? (Wind alone doesn't apply much load)
I have no idea, since that was before we bought the boat. But....since then we've anchored through many storms. 40+knots from the west at Big Majors Spot Bahamas (fetch of????miles across the banks), same at Marsh Harbor during frontal passages. Flipped dinghies on their painters tied to the big boat. 50+knots anchored off Monument Beach in George Town, Bahamas. 2 nights anchored on the Great Bahama Banks with thunderstorms and no land within 40 miles. Believe me, I've spent way too many nights on anchor watch. The anchorage in this thread is a death trap in the wrong winds. One, no cruiser worth his salt would have been caught in.

Especially with lots of wind and waves, chafe on the tackle is most likely the biggest danger. With the appropriate mooring lines/snubber, the shock on deck gear is probably not all that severe. More likely to rip out cleats at the dock in Nassau, when some sportfisher wakes the marina.

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Old 03-01-2015, 21:32   #77
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Oiy
seems the train has gone completely off the tracks.
I've had production and "custom" boats over the years, I've also bought and sold insurance/bank owned boats over the years and because of that I've looked at a lot of damaged boats. The majority of insurance boats I've seen were either damaged from failing mooring/dock gear or the failure of the particular boats cleats or lines, whether under storm circumstances or in benign conditions. It's something worth examining on your own boat or mooring, often we take it for granted that the hardware we so depend on is solid when just the opposite may be true.
I've seen some pretty questionable practices when it comes to deck hardware mounting on all ranges of yachts, it's up the owner to ensure the integrity of their own boat, no matter what make.
We should all assume that our boats will see some challenging weather when at anchor or moored, it's part of the deal, I live in the Northeast where severe storms during the hurricane season are expected, I don't assume the weather will always be smooth and calm.
The quality of workmanship and engineering isn't always related to the price range of the boat, they all need to make a profit, it just depends on where they place their priorities.
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Old 03-01-2015, 21:40   #78
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Oiy
seems the train has gone completely off the tracks.
I think the train was off the tracks on the very first post. Of course, autumnbreeze has always seemingly had it in for Hunters for some reason:

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I don't really care if you love hunters and think they're great. They're great if you aren't a very good sailor, you're disabled, older, or just don't want to work that hard.
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Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27
We see a lot of Catalina's and a lot of Hunters, and 9 out of 10 hunters observed under sail will not have their sails trimmed properly.

Disclaimer: I've owned 2 Catalina's, and if you gave me a Hunter I'd sell it and put the money towards a real boat, not a water RV.
I like my water RV...bow cleats and all.
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Old 03-01-2015, 22:01   #79
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Good stuff here about riding out storms on a mooring - Mooring Preparation & Precautions Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

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Old 03-01-2015, 22:07   #80
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I remember that. But, as I said then, if this is such a problem, where are all the complaints from those who own them?
Good question... Only 3 likely explanations come to mind: Either the owners of that model Hunter are not 'the complaining kind', or choose to restrict their sailing to starboard tack alone, or perhaps rarely sail at all...

:-)

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Again, as I also said then, that arrangement is certainly not my personal cup of whiskey, and I also still agree with you on the companionway door on that boat too - not for me - but none of these things keep that Hunter (was it the 45 DS?) from being a Blue Water Hunter any more than your sextant makes your boat a Wally.
Yeah, it's probably just me, who thinks the reefer on a boat intended to be sailed offshore should be usable on both Starboard AND Port tack...

True, my little tub is about as far from being a Wally as one can get, but at least I can pull a cold one out of my fridge on any point of sail... :-)
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Old 03-01-2015, 22:14   #81
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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True, my little tub is about as far from being a Wally as one can get, but at least I can pull a cold one out of my fridge on any point of sail... :-)
Yeah, but they can pull a cold 24 out on port tack. You can't do that. Win.
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Old 03-01-2015, 22:24   #82
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Jim,

Makes a good point about cleats being strong enough for drouges or sea anchors.

few vessels would have standard cleats adequate for these. Part of the bluewater preparing of any vessel.
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Old 03-01-2015, 22:45   #83
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27 View Post
It's very sad about the loss of life and 8 boats at Avalon harbor last week. Just a heads up to you hunter owners, the sailboat that sank on her mooring was a Hunter, and sank after a bow cleat "snapped off". Hopefully you never find yourself in a gale, but if you do, consider securing the bow line to something else extra as a backup.

Here's a pic of the Hunter before she went to Davey Jones
I believe what happened is the Hunter swung into the neighboring boat and its stern swim-platform punctured the hull.

Talk about thread drift
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Old 03-01-2015, 22:45   #84
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Guys,
Just as an FYI on Catalina & Avalon Harbor. When a storm kicks up, there's no getting out of the harbor, period. The boats & moorings are packed in as tight together as commuters in a subway car.
And the whole harbor turns into a breaking surf zone (ditto on a stretch of the water in front of it). As in with continual 5'-9'+ breakers, & it's not uncommon for'em to average larger. Also they're on a VERY short period, as well. At times, a boat length or 3 apart for extended periods (hours/the storm's duration+). So even if there were no other boats or moorings in the harbor, few vessels have the horsepower, & handling to get through a surf zone like that which is 1/3+ mile deep.

Keep in mind too, that in SoCal 20kts is considered Very heavy air (almost storm force to the locals). And I'd say that 90-something percent of those who own, or are on boats down there don't have much, if any experience in anything stiffer.
As an example, on a 50'er I used to race on, they asked me (not the chicken bowman) to put up the 2.2oz Storm Spinnaker in 18kts True Wind. Yeah, barely enough to support a kit that heavy. Or I should say, asked me to do a peel from the 0.75oz kite which we had up.
And the boat was handling just as it would/did in 8kts of wind. So the mindset there's rather different to say the least.

As to laminate thickness, proper backing plates, & how to properly fasten down hardware, I'm not even gonna' start. But aside from Nigel Calder, here's an EXCELLENT reference http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Boat-...+boat+strength
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Old 03-01-2015, 23:13   #85
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Exactly.

And even when you do bring factual information to a post like photos, or descriptions by guys who have the actual hands-on experience, or scientific/academic/engineering studies or whatever, it's usually dismissed if it doesn't line up with the general narrative. And you're suddenly "the bad guy with an agenda".

.
I believe I brought some "factual information" and "actual hands-on experience" to the forum during a recent anchor thread regarding anchoring in LA harbor during a two day Santa Ana wind storm just like the one being described on this thread and how my Hunter 450 felt like it was coming apart as I was being tossed around inside the boat from side to side with cushions flying about. I also described the same scenario on my Hunter when I was anchored just 10 miles down the coast of Catalina at a relatively calm anchorage.

Smack, you were the one repeatedly poking fun at my lack of seamanship and poor anchoring ability. You're quite the hypocrite. I point out the shortcomings of my boat to educate others... people like you.


Is this thread going to FINALLY hit home that some Hunters are built with shoddy workmanship and poor quality parts and design? What's it going to take to convince you?

Ken
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Old 04-01-2015, 00:01   #86
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I call the busted cleat BS. First of all, you use two lines off the bow, one either side to the pennant on the ball. Not likely to lose two cleats at the same time. Probably the lines chaffed through.

Ralph
Not at Avalon on Catalina Island. You have one on the bow at the mooring ball anchor and another at the stern off the connecting line/hauser to the stern anchor:

http://www.sailorschoice.com/Catalina/cat-tips.htm
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:57   #87
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Just my remarks so ignore instead of feeling offended.
Wouldn't call 40knot wind a storm. A gale that is..
Wouldn't trust any of the never production boats have proper backing plates anywhere. To prove me wrong show me pictures with model and year. The same goes with the thru-hulls, wiring and any other item where proper quality has a marine-pricetag on it. The bottom line reads, cheap cheap cheat...

BR Teddy
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:19   #88
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Lol Smack, i think i have some replys from you under well consideration, but now this? take it sporty but is a ignorant logic, dont feel ofended pls,

If the dufour have a proper small backing plate under each bolt instead of small fender whasers , a traveler flying around the deck something i consider more dangerous maybe he had broken a shackle or a block, something with a easy fix even underway..

You maybe laugh to what im going to say, but, i strongly believe that some builders design the cleat installation like a fuse in case of a heavy load, why?? thin deck laminates ... its desirable to have a cleat blown out than a section of the deck.... then you dont solve nothing adding a beefy backing plate , since most decks this days are sándwich construction , they leave the winches and deck gear áreas with solid laminate, but how thick??

Ask yourself where in a storm or gale or hurricane situation you are going to tie your anchor gear , mooring gear, tow scenario....



Given the number of people who have been killed by a flying cleat after it pulled out of a deck, there is some truly unsafe advice here in the post you quoted. A large heavy lump of metal attached to an elastic line under load should never ever come loose. Lives are at stake in this, I know of several fatalities myself.
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:23   #89
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I think the train was off the tracks on the very first post. Of course, autumnbreeze has always seemingly had it in for Hunters for some reason:


I like my water RV...bow cleats and all.
Why wouldn't you like your own boat? Pretty normal I would think. Rather than defend the short comings why not just accept that entry level boats often leave something to be desired here and there. Learn as much as you can and make the improvements. What benefit is there when someone who has owned a Hunter brings up a problem they have had and you do your best to drag their boat down, now that truly is silly. Neil tells you that the Defore Large uses fender washers under the main traveler, just accept that this is cheap construction and check your own boat because having this part of the boat break offshore would not be cool.
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Old 04-01-2015, 05:05   #90
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

As much fun as it apparently is to bash Hunters, I think that there are a LOT of boats out there that could benefit from larger cleats and backing plates. I have no idea whether Hunters are among them though. I also think that Smack and others have raised a good point about looking at the whole system rather than just one part of it when considering changes. I replaced the bow and stern cleats on my Nordic 44 because they were low profile aluminum ones that I had a hard time getting a couple dock lines or a beefy mooring pennant securely onto. So, I replaced all 4 with bigger, stainless steel ones and had proper backing plates made for them. Another benefit of larger cleats is larger diameter bolts to hold them in place.

Smack also mentioned not depending on the bow cleat to hang his boat from the dock but that's pretty close to the forces your bow cleat can encounter in a bad storm. I saw my boat looking a lot like a submarine while on its mooring in an early spring storm that had 40 to 50 knot winds. The wind/waves were pushing on the front of the boat so hard that the mooring line was absolutely straight and was pulling the bow of the boat down slightly so the waves were regularly breaking around the mast, and the stern of my boat looked unnaturally high. I was safely on land and expected my boat to be there soon too but the next day was a beautiful calm one and when I visited my boat you'd never know anything had happened the day before. Oversized cleats with backing plates, oversized mooring and pennant, and kevlar chafe gear on the pennant over the normal chafe gear, and some luck.

I understand the concept of using washers as a "fuse" but don't think it's a very smart thing to do on a boat and don't believe that any manufacturer does it purposely. Does anyone really think builders do tests to see what forces are required to pull fender washers through their laminate? And if they don't do tests like that, then how would they know how to size the "fuse" fender washers? Things like cleats and travelers should all be anchored firmly in place with proper backing plates so the boat WILL just about hang from them if it's required. If you want to have a planned failure point, it should be whatever is fastened to the cleat such as the mooring pennant, not a part of the boat itself. If anyone fears that rugged cleats and proper backing plates will cause a large portion of their deck to be ripped out, they probably need a more ruggedly built boat.
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