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Old 03-01-2015, 18:17   #46
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I have not personally inspected all the new entry level boats but I was looking at a near new Benni Cyclades and that's what they used, fender washers. I think it was NeilPride on this forum that suggested it was a standard way of backing a cleat but I may be wrong. My surveyor told me that several of the new boats used fender washers for backing but to be fair I can't remember the brands. Help me with this one Neil.
Making false generalities like that when based on only one boat plus the dubious 'somebody told me' seems to be typical on this forum. I guess facts really don't matter here but thanks for responding honestly.

I doubt anyone here has inspected every new entry level boat so making declarative statements about them makes some of us wary of any criticisms. When coupled with the usual Internet experts here, these discussions can be misleading at best or more likely serve to misinform those looking for good information.

Fortunately, some other forums don't seem to share this problem.
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Old 03-01-2015, 18:26   #47
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Making false generalities like that when based on only one boat plus the dubious 'somebody told me' seems to be typical on this forum. I guess facts really don't matter here but thanks for responding honestly.

I doubt anyone here has inspected every new entry level boat so making declarative statements about them makes some of us wary of any criticisms. When coupled with the usual Internet experts here, these discussions can be misleading at best or more likely serve to misinform those looking for good information.

Fortunately, some other forums don't seem to share this problem.
Exactly.

And even when you do bring factual information to a post like photos, or descriptions by guys who have the actual hands-on experience, or scientific/academic/engineering studies or whatever, it's usually dismissed if it doesn't line up with the general narrative. And you're suddenly "the bad guy with an agenda".

I just think it's kind of comical and have fun with it. It's enjoyable silliness.
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Old 03-01-2015, 18:49   #48
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Exactly.

And even when you do bring factual information to a post like photos, or descriptions by guys who have the actual hands-on experience, or scientific/academic/engineering studies or whatever, it's usually dismissed if it doesn't line up with the general narrative. And you're suddenly "the bad guy with an agenda".

I just think it's kind of comical and have fun with it. It's enjoyable silliness.
If you would like pictures of fender washers backing cleats go to your old thread about rudder failures around post number 179. Does that make me the bad guy with the agenda, or do I get an award for comedy???? Bingo!

Originally Posted by transmitterdan
The scariest thing I noticed in Neil's pictures is that it seems the laminate plywood is now a structural part of the boat. Instead of a platform for the fiberglass as in days of old the actual wood and glue in the laminating process is taking stress loads. Laminates are strong but only in certain axis. I think they are least strong when stress is trying to pull the laminate apart as could happen in a boat. The green goo is almost certainly stronger than the plywood panels.

The fender washer cleat is a joke, right?


The fender washers come from from the aft cleats. No kidding...NeilPride
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Old 03-01-2015, 18:57   #49
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Making false generalities like that when based on only one boat plus the dubious 'somebody told me' seems to be typical on this forum. I guess facts really don't matter here but thanks for responding honestly.

I doubt anyone here has inspected every new entry level boat so making declarative statements about them makes some of us wary of any criticisms. When coupled with the usual Internet experts here, these discussions can be misleading at best or more likely serve to misinform those looking for good information.

Fortunately, some other forums don't seem to share this problem.
I back up what he say, and yes, i work with new entry level boats every day , by far many brands fail in the proper backing plate aspect , is not just the cleats isue, its even in some cases in the mainsheet traveler, dont believe me? i have in the shop a 2 meters Traveler broken in half from a Dufour 545 grand large.... how?? fender washers under the coachroof .. 2 of this bolts punch trough the FG cabin apparently in a hard mainsail jibe...and i can back up with pics what i say.... Cheers..
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:04   #50
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Exactly.

And even when you do bring factual information to a post like photos, or descriptions by guys who have the actual hands-on experience, or scientific/academic/engineering studies or whatever, it's usually dismissed if it doesn't line up with the general narrative. And you're suddenly "the bad guy with an agenda".

I just think it's kind of comical and have fun with it. It's enjoyable silliness.

Mate dont be ridiculous please, google BACKING PLATE... and come to us with your study results...
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:05   #51
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I would just like to mention that the winds that afflict Socal so strongly, usually in the fall, are NOT the Santana winds. They are the Santa Ana winds.

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Old 03-01-2015, 19:07   #52
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Herein lies the problem example:
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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I back up what he say, and yes, i work with new entry level boats every day , by far many brands fail in the proper backing plate aspect , is not just the cleats isue, its even in some cases in the mainsheet traveler, dont believe me? i have in the shop a 2 meters Traveler broken in half from a Dufour 545 grand large.... how?? fender washers under the coachroof .. 2 of this bolts punch trough the FG cabin apparently in a hard mainsail jibe...and i can back up with pics what i say.... Cheers..
One of the usual suspects...

I'd like to see how you arrive at the "by far many brands fail..."

How many brands? What years? Manufacturer installed or owner? Or did you simply miss the backing plates imbedded in the glass?
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:16   #53
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Neil - I fully understand backing plates. Generally, they are a great idea. But there is also a point when they may not make sense from a structural perspective. In other words, had I had a big SS backing plate on the cleat on my C27 - would it have saved the boat? No. The intended use for that C27 cleat is not to hold the sunken boat vertically to the dock by the dockline. It's to hold the floating boat in the slip or hold it to an anchor. I suppose I could beef everything up to try to handle the sunken hang scenario, but that doesn't make a lot sense does it?

And your example of the traveler pulling through on the Dufor - would it have potentially caused more structural damage in that accidental gybe if there had been a backing plate? Or are you convinced there would have been absolutely no damage whatsoever to the surrounding structure had there been a backing plate with the same forces?

Like I said before when we discussed this before - it all depends on the intended use. There are many considerations in dealing with loads in boats. Sometimes "Mickey Mouse Washers" can actually make sense.
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:17   #54
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I would just like to mention that the winds that afflict Socal so strongly, usually in the fall, are NOT the Santana winds. They are the Santa Ana winds.

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Oye Como Va.
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:23   #55
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Exactly.

And even when you do bring factual information to a post like photos, or descriptions by guys who have the actual hands-on experience, or scientific/academic/engineering studies or whatever, it's usually dismissed if it doesn't line up with the general narrative. And you're suddenly "the bad guy with an agenda".
You mean, like the time I posted those pics over on Sailnet of the 'kitchen' on the Bluewater Hunter I'd run south that featured an RV-style refrigerator whose door could not be opened on port tack without dumping the entire contents on the 'floor'?

:-)
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:29   #56
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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You mean, like the time I posted those pics of the 'kitchen' on the Bluewater Hunter I'd run south that featured an RV-style refrigerator whose door could not be opened on port tack without dumping the entire contents on the 'floor'?

:-)
I remember that. But, as I said then, if this is such a problem, where are all the complaints from those who own them?

Again, as I also said then, that arrangement is certainly not my personal cup of whiskey, and I also still agree with you on the companionway door on that boat too - not for me - but none of these things keep that Hunter (was it the 45 DS?) from being a Blue Water Hunter any more than your sextant makes your boat a Wally.
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:30   #57
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Neil - I fully understand backing plates. Generally, they are a great idea. But there is also a point when they may not make sense from a structural perspective. In other words, had I had a big SS backing plate on the cleat on my C27 - would it have helped anything? No. My intended use for that C27 cleat is not to hold the sunken boat vertically to the dock by the dockline. It's to hold the floating boat in the slip. I suppose I could beef everything up to try to handle the sunken hang scenario, but that doesn't make a lot sense does it?

And your example of the traveler pulling through on the Dufor - would it have potentially caused more structural damage in that accidental gybe if there had been a backing plate? Or are you convinced there would have been absolutely no damage whatsoever to the surrounding structure had there been a backing plate with the same forces?

Like I said before when we discussed this - it all depends on the intended use. There are many considerations in dealing with loads in boats. Sometimes "Mickey Mouse Washers" can actually make sense.
Lol Smack, i think i have some replys from you under well consideration, but now this? take it sporty but is a ignorant logic, dont feel ofended pls,

If the dufour have a proper small backing plate under each bolt instead of small fender whasers , a traveler flying around the deck something i consider more dangerous maybe he had broken a shackle or a block, something with a easy fix even underway..

You maybe laugh to what im going to say, but, i strongly believe that some builders design the cleat installation like a fuse in case of a heavy load, why?? thin deck laminates ... its desirable to have a cleat blown out than a section of the deck.... then you dont solve nothing adding a beefy backing plate , since most decks this days are sándwich construction , they leave the winches and deck gear áreas with solid laminate, but how thick??

Ask yourself where in a storm or gale or hurricane situation you are going to tie your anchor gear , mooring gear, tow scenario....
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:42   #58
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Lol Smack, i think i have some replys from you under well consideration, but now this? take it sporty but is a ignorant logic, dont feel ofended pls,

If the dufour have a proper small backing plate under each bolt instead of small fender whasers , a traveler flying around the deck something i consider more dangerous maybe he had broken a shackle or a block, something with a easy fix even underway..

You maybe laugh to what im going to say, but, i strongly believe that some builders design the cleat installation like a fuse in case of a heavy load, why?? thin deck laminates ... its desirable to have a cleat blown out than a section of the deck.... then you dont solve nothing adding a beefy backing plate , since most decks this days are sándwich construction , they leave the winches and deck gear áreas with solid laminate, but how thick??

Ask yourself where in a storm or gale or hurricane situation you are going to tie your anchor gear , mooring gear, tow scenario....
I'm not laughing at all at what you're saying. I think your "fuse" scenario is probably exactly right in many cases. That was my point with the traveler. Sometimes the washers make sense.

I will be adding backing plates to the aft cleats on my Hunter (I'm assuming they are not already there but haven't checked yet) - specifically because I have a SeaBrake drogue we will use if ever needed. But here's the truth - I'm just shooting in the dark. I don't know exactly what kind of loads will actually be placed on those cleats and surrounding laminate in such a scenario. And I also don't know exactly how much load that area of my boat can take - even with backing plates. Yes, I DO know that the backing plates will greatly increase the bearing ability of the cleats - but I'm just throwing "stronger" at the situation without really understanding the underlying engineering. That's not always a good thing. And that's my point.

Also, I certainly don't expect Hunter to build every boat to be ready to support a SeaBrake drogue out of the box. That would be a bit silly considering the market. On the other hand, maybe it can and I'm just assuming, like you, it can't. We don't really know do we?

Finally, I won't be sailing in a hurricane. So don't worry.
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:48   #59
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Ok cool, i dont know others but i want to trust my cleats and anchor gear, i have a wide 6 mm ss plate under all my cleats wide enough to spread the load, i prefer to see my cleats start to pull the deck than a cleat flying and leaving my arse dragging on top of something, boat, dock, rocks...
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Old 03-01-2015, 19:50   #60
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Ok cool, i dont know others but i want to trust my cleats and anchor gear, i have a wide 6 mm ss plate under all my cleats wide enough to spread the load, i prefer to see my cleats start to pull the deck than a cleat flying and leaving my arse dragging on top of something, boat, dock, rocks...
Did your boat come with them or did you add them?
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