Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-01-2015, 10:00   #526
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
This is a truism - that many seem to either forget or choose to ignore. Ultimately, the skipper bears the final responsibility for his(her- no discrimination here) boat.

Right now we have a hurricain coming through Denmark (the 2nd one in two days!). Because I am one of the most fortunate sailors in the world, my boat is docked right outside my ktichen door (30 feet across my patio to the boat). It ahs 6 25mm lines with dogbones holding to the pilings/dock and I've a couple of reserve lines from the boat hanging loose to another set of piling (just in case the first lines or pilings fail).

If the worst happens - whose fault is it? Actually mine, even though I feel I've done my utmost to protect the boat. But sh*t does happen.
You may want to consider taking pre-storm pics of your set-up if you haven't already, Carsten. Can be a big help after the fact in settling any insurance claim (which I sincerely hope you don't have to file). All the best with it.

With regard to who bears ultimate responsibility when it comes to moorings, I think there's probably a misplaced but not surprising belief on the part of less experienced sailors perhaps that being on a mooring is much more secure as opposed to anchoring out. So I think this leads to some complacency with regard to both the integrity of the mooring as well to their set-up onboard their boat. So good of you guys to highlight ultimate responsibility, but also useful to look at direct cause & effect as this incident and Maine Sail's articles help illustrate.
__________________

__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 10:51   #527
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,833
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yep, there are all kinds of dopes out there. Here's the leading supplier of the things - Samson:

Mooring Pendants

And here is the very apropos supplier "Rope Dope" - which spells it correctly in the actual link - AND IN THE TITLE IMAGE FOR THE PAGE, but then spells it all dopey all over the rest of the page:

mooring pennants

Gotta love it. I can see why Exile was confused.
While we're at it, when are people going to understand the difference between DINGHY and DINGY ?? Geesh.
__________________

__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 11:43   #528
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
While we're at it, when are people going to understand the difference between DINGHY and DINGY ?? Geesh.
Is your dinghy dingy?

And are you doing penance for hanging a pennant on your pendant?
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 12:24   #529
Registered User
 
centaur's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Dublin
Boat: Westerly Centaur
Posts: 49
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Good to see your still punching above! SMACK.
__________________
Just here for the Craic
centaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 12:25   #530
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by centaur View Post
Good to see your still punching above! SMACK.
Hey Centaur!!!! How ya doin' brotha??
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 13:00   #531
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
While we're at it, when are people going to understand the difference between DINGHY and DINGY ?? Geesh.
I had a dingy girlfriend once who hated riding in my dinghy. Is this what you mean?
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 13:05   #532
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
I had a dingy girlfriend once who hated riding in my dinghy. Is this what you mean?
She was stupid or needed a shower?
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 13:53   #533
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Pendant vs. Pennant..

Here's some sources that are often considered quite reputable.

Yale Polydyne II Morring Pendants
Maxi-Moor II \ Nylon Core Polyester Sleeve Double Braid Rope | Yale Cordage

New England Ropes Cyclone Mooring Pendants
New England Ropes - Product Details

The Sailing Dictionary Second Edition says that pennant is an alternate spelling to pendant. Pendant being the primary spelling...

Samson = Pendants: Samson Mooring Pendants


Yale Cordage = Pendant:


Merriam Webster = Pendant:
Clear-hawse pendant - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

USCG/Pendant Page 30 = Pendant
references that have a "D" in pendant): http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/1..._16500_21A.pdf

US Navy Page 7: = pendant (this is just one of many examples of the US Navy referring to them as pendants) HMPE Spectra pendants (brand of special synthetic, non-stretch rope) may be added to the wire from the barge to the mooring buoys. The horizontal reach of each leg (combined length) will be approximately 1,000 feet (305 meters).
www.cpf.navy.mil/content/foia/ea/appendix_e.pdf

Cook Inlet Mooring Study (White Paper) = Pendant: www.cookinletriskassessment.com/.../MooringStudyfinaleditApril17....

Nova Braid = Pendant - Canada's largest supplier of marine cordage: Mooring Pendants | Novabraid

P.C Janssen a commercial manufacturer of mooring equipment = Pendant:
Mooring and anchor pendant buoys

Jim-Buoy large manufacturer of mooring equipment = Pendant:
Mooring and anchor pendant buoys

Defender = Pendant: Defender Mooring Pendants

West Marine = Pendants: West Marine Pendants

Rope Inc. another cordage manufacturer calling them pendants:
Rope Inc. | Megayacht Mooring Pendants | Tails

Brion Toss himself uses a "D" in pendant. He also defines pendant on page 187 of the Riggers Apprentice....:
SparTalk - View Single Post - Dueling experts



Definition:
Modern Marlinspike Seamanship Pg. 219 - Pendant (mooring) - A short rope or chain, usually with a thimble spliced in one end.

Nigel Calder also uses Pendants, with a "D", Cruising Handbook Pg. 64......

I still have no problem with pennant and pendant being used interchangeably..
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 13:56   #534
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Kewl.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 14:36   #535
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

LOL! Leave it to MS to provide the definitive answer, with vols. of supporting proof of course!
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 15:48   #536
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA
Boat: International Etchells USA 125 Black Magic, Santana 20 475 Ghost, Hobie 33 3100 Bruja, dinghies,
Posts: 1,118
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Let's give the unfortunate owner a bit of sympathy and consideration of local factors.

I believe the moorings are maintained by the harbor, and I don't know whether much "customization" is permitted. And rigging a bridle system that works well with the existing fore-and-aft mooring set-up may be tricky.

For some boat owners, Avalon is their home harbor and they have invested tens to hundred of thousands of dollars in purchasing a mooring. To keep their boats away from Catalina in the winter, they'd need to acquire yet another slip or mooring on the southern California mainland, which seems a bit wasteful, and which can sometimes be a challenge finding for some boat sizes.

To move a boat in advance of a forecasted storm, there would be getting off work/rescheduling activities, and getting on a scheduled ferry ride 25 or more miles out to the island (assuming the weather doesn't mess with ferry schedules) and then dinghying out, by which time the storm may have come and gone or not happened at all. And there's precious little moorage that's really secure, and Cat harbor could be rough going to reach in bad weather, with some lee shores and tricky approaches.
And, especially in bad weather, Catalina is a pretty darned hostile place to anchor--lots of steep, deep, and rocky. It has lots of places where ordinary boats just don't have anywhere near the ground tackle that would be required. (I guess there'd be the one slight bright spot in that the rode could be nearly parallel to the bottom!)

People keep boats in Avalon and Catalina in general because it's a beautiful place and a wonderful escape from the bustling SoCal cities. And, especially in the summer, Avalon harbor is its own community, with families and couples and kids going back and forth, and even some folks commuting weekly or more often between the harbor and cities. It's a special place.

But, especially in winter, it's not very secure and leaving a boat without someone near enough to respond rapidly does carry a risk. Some of the risk is mitigated; the boats are spread out further apart in winter. And, often the storm effects aren't as bad as they were this time, and the closest one or two rows may be the only ones that get much breaking wave action. But when it gets bad... nasty indeed it is.
__________________
Pat, from the Desert Sea http://desertsea.blogspot.com
rgscpat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 18:37   #537
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,682
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

So is Maine Sail a pedant about pendants and pennants?

No doubt there are many reasons to want to be in Avalon - safety of a boat in a Santa Ana isn't one of them. Number one responsibility is safety of vessel and crew. He didn't keep that #1 and thus his boat sank. A hard lesson, and one that seems very difficult to teach. In this case, just because the moorings are available doesn't mean they are safe - that judgement is always the ultimate responsibility of the master. Admittedly sometimes sh!t happens - but this loss was predictable (for some boat at some time). The skipper gambled (whether or not he was aware of it) and he lost. I really am sorry for him. But the lesson is still important and not to be explained away.

Greg
__________________
CarinaPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2015, 23:00   #538
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

ya know, CarinaPDX, you're right, and I bet Susie Q's owner knows it's his responsibility.

And, the boat population of California exceeds that of Oregon. Shortage of berths is probably one part of the influences on what happened to SQ. Also, the prestige of having a mooring at Avalon. What's scarce is admired and expensive. Many factors leading to having a mooring there, and none elsewhere.

I think you'd find if you went there, that you'd find a whole lot of *stuff* contributed to SQ's sinking.

1)Choice of lightly built boat (compared to yours),

2) possibly should have had a stretchy bridle (but not so stretchy he could contact the boat astern of him--and how hard is that to get right?),

3) not having swing moorings instead of bow and stern, [the bow & stern system is supposed to let them get more boats in, but at a price (pun intended).

Like rgscpat (sp?) wrote, it's 25 miles away by ferry. So, maybe 2-1/2 hrs. @ 10 knots.
What's the poor owner to do, hire a helicopter? All very well, for the super rich, no worries, mate, but what are they, 3% of the total population?

Like you, I have sympathy for SQ's owner, he gambled with a situation, and it worked out poorly for him. But I also have sympathy for the decision to moor where he wanted. He was [possibly predictably] unlucky.

There's so much we don't know about the moorings: does he own it? is it owned by the harbor board? how are they maintained? does the owner have a legal right to make some changes? like adding a secondary line to the other cleat?

I'd also like to add that at the point you have 2.5 m. seas coming through a mooring field, you might not want to go out to a boat....

Yes, it's Susie Q's captains responsibility, but we're not a court of law, and I for another, would like to see him cut some slack. I think his options were more limited simply by life than I think you do.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 00:25   #539
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,682
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Ann-

OK, tiring as it is, I will try again as it seems that you are mis-stating my views. First thing is this not about the unfortunate owner of the Hunter - I would prefer that he not be involved in this discussion, nor the other 7 owners who lost their boats that day. Any skipper with thousands of miles under their keel is going to have made mistakes that were riskier than the mistakes here - these skippers were just not as lucky. I have avoided making this personal, and don't much care for you making it personal about me. And, FWIW, my sailing experience extends far beyond Oregon (and does in fact include Southern California and a Santa Ana in my cruising).

The intended audience for my comments includes those who have yet to become experienced cruisers, so that they won't have to learn the hard way. What I am trying to communicate is more than responsibility, it is a way of thinking about all matters regarding cruising which (trivially) may be summed up as "safety first".

When coming into a new harbor, for a night or a year, whether for anchoring, mooring, or staying at a marina, any skipper should evaluate the risks (of all sorts) and based on that make safe choices for the boat and crew. Going into Avalon for a few days it makes sense to keep a weather watch (recognizing the eastern exposure and fetch, and the possibility of Santa Anas), and plan to either double up on the lines, respond to the forecast by moving out, or be prepared in the event to leave on a moment's notice if the easterly builds. For a longer stay with the skipper not present it makes sense to double up or make arrangements for someone else to move the vessel to safety (or both). Of course jetting in at the last minute is absurd - which is why the skipper shouldn't put himself and his boat in such a position in the first place. Anticipating what can go wrong and how you are going to deal with it is essential. Something about planning ahead...

Your list of reasons why someone would want to stay at Avalon are to the point: the more attractive a particular harbor the more likely the risks will be underestimated. (The more appealing the cheese the less likely to see the trap.) Also, evolution has taught us that there is safety in numbers, so when we see a harbor with many other boats it looks safe to us. There is no substitute for making one's own assessment.

I think it is worth noting that an earlier post described the harbormaster moving the fuel dock and two other floats out of the harbor to safety. If I were aboard and saw that you better believe I'm slipping lines and heading for the exits. Even knowing that such actions were SOP would sharpen the focus on an action plan, although admittedly that probably wouldn't be known by non-locals.

To your specific comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
1)Choice of lightly built boat (compared to yours),
While I would agree that the choice of boat and its preparation are part of the owner's responsibility, you will not find any disparaging comments in my posts about this Hunter being "too light". In fact you might take note of my earlier (positive) comments about the engineering of the boat. Something that tends to get lost in the discussion of heavy boats is that the forces are comparably higher. When my boat bucks at a mooring I expect the loads to be more than double that of the Hunter, as the displacement is more than double (and that for a shorter boat). Whether my cleats and their mountings are actually double the strength (4+ tons!) is debatable, and any pendant on a mooring would be the same for both. Heavy displacement is no panacea; it has its advantages and disadvantages but I do not see that either the Hunter's light weight was a problem or that a heavy boat would have been better under the same conditions - in fact it would put more stress on the same mooring.

Quote:
2) possibly should have had a stretchy bridle (but not so stretchy he could contact the boat astern of him--and how hard is that to get right?),
Looking for stretch as a solution to a short pendant doesn't seem very promising to me. The main points of the bridle are to a) reduce swinging, b) reduce chafe, c) distribute the load, and d) provide redundancy. If you look back at the photo of the excellent bridle recommended for storm conditions you will see that there are 4 lines, each terminated at a separate cleat. That alone could be expected to have prevented this accident.

Quote:
There's so much we don't know about the moorings: does he own it? is it owned by the harbor board? how are they maintained? does the owner have a legal right to make some changes? like adding a secondary line to the other cleat?
There are many unknowns. But by that I mean unknown to the (generic) skipper, not us. Without diving on the mooring and doing a thorough inspection, or knowing (and trusting) how well - and recently - the mooring was maintained, there is little reason to trust it. If one doesn't know it is trustworthy then relying on it in a blow is a risk. How big a risk? Always hard to say (unless there are obvious problems). But regardless of who owns it there should be no reluctance to put on extra mooring lines; I've never encountered or heard of any harbormaster complaining about tying one's own lines to a mooring (the norm actually). Just don't do anything to damage it.

The more I cruised the pickier I became of anchorages and moorages. That probably has something to do with needing to up-anchor or slip lines in the middle of the night too many times. I have known boats in marinas to be lost due to failed breakwaters or storm surge. It is impossible to eliminate all risks but it is necessary to manage them wisely.

Greg
__________________
CarinaPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 02:28   #540
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Greg,

I guess I should apologize, I did not mean to single you out in any way. I did feel that you were perhaps a little harsh to the owner of SQ, because once the decision to leave the Susie Q in Avalon was made, that boat was in danger, and maybe its owner did not understand that from the beginning.

I have one time a long time ago anchored off Avalon, and entered the harbor by dinghy. I agree with the others who have posted here that it is quite tight quarters.


Personally, I don't think 6 - 8 ft waves should cause the cleat to pull out. I suspect it was snatch loads that caused that, but have some doubts about whether the cleats would have accepted stronger, larger diameter line. However, I completely agree with everything you say about selecting where to leave one's boat. Too few people ask themselves "what could possibly go wrong here?", and learning to ask that question and answer it for themselves would definitely make them better skippers.

One CF'er was there in Avalon, and posted in this thread that he did leave Avalon and went (although it was not a pleasant passage) around to Cat Hbr. He was there, and saw what the weather was doing. That escape was not available for Susie Q.

In the spirit of stimulating thoughts in those less experienced, here are some of the questions you might consider asking yourself:

1) what will happen if the wind shifts direction and increases in strength? [sub question to this is "what is the wx that is forecast?"]

2) If a wind shift is predicted for the middle of the night, what is our plan for the event?

There's sometimes many options, sometimes few. I can't count the number of lee shores we've anchored on in anticipation of a predicted wind direction/strength change. And there have been times also when we were blown out of anchorages.

3) Some of us don't ever pick up strange moorings. But I doubt that mooring was strange to SQ's owner. So maybe the question one should ask oneself is: "if I am going to pick up a mooring, how can I maximize its safeness and how will I know it is time to leave it?" This is why many yachties dive any unfamiliar mooring, to check the line and chain. I've seen a number of mooring chains with one or more links almost rusted away; others down to less than 1/16 inch of 1/2" chain. "Does this mooring have enough surge protection?" "mmNot with that chain!", or "it needs another ball to submerge" and so on. Explore the concept and go elsewhere if you have questions as to the security of the mooring for your vessel.

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
catalina, hunter

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Comments on Hunter 42 passage, Hunter 45, hunter 45 cc, hunter 49 and 50 chucklet321 Monohull Sailboats 3 07-10-2012 14:19
Bow and Stern or Two Bow Anchors? illiniphoenix Anchoring & Mooring 25 22-08-2012 12:35
Hunter Passage 42 auto pilot failure wahoo40 Seamanship & Boat Handling 0 02-07-2011 07:23
Multihull Capsize Due to Lack of Experience ssullivan Multihull Sailboats 125 06-03-2008 22:07
Forecasts: Northeast Due for Big Hurricane CaptainK Atlantic & the Caribbean 2 28-03-2006 05:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.