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Old 09-01-2015, 16:34   #496
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I wasn't intending to be critical of your post, only extending its logic.

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the responsibility probably falls on the skipper
Here is where we might disagree a bit. I don't see "probably" belonging in that sentence. The responsibility falls on the skipper - full stop. I don't mean to be pedantic here; the distinction is important. Sailors on their home turf tend to be a bit complacent. Seasoned cruisers have learned to identify threats and act to deal with them on a timely basis, even if that is inconvenient to their plans, sleep, or bank balance. Both legally and traditionally the skipper is absolutely responsible for the safety of boat and crew as his #1 job, and experienced skippers live and breathe that fact. Noobs often dismiss that as "too serious" - this is about having fun. Until it isn't. The trick to cruising is to take the serious steps to be safe while enjoying the rest - not ignore the threats and just kick back and enjoy. Getting this right is very important IMHO.

Greg
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:43   #497
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by centerline View Post
I couldnt agree more

after the "weak link" fails, all sorts of collateral damage can happen which has nothing at all to do with the cause of...

I wonder if the pendent attachment was owned by the boat owner, or if it was part of the mooring?...

I didnt wade thru the 30+ pages of BS to get to find the REAL explanation of what happened, but neither will I post what I think may have happened.

other than im betting the pendent was in poor condition or was undersized for the boat in those conditions...
If you read all 30+ pages you won't find any definitive explanation for why the boat sunk, except for the fact that the boat never should never have been there to begin with as CarinaPDX, Jim Cate & others have aptly pointed out! What you might find, however, is a more plausible & innocent explanation for why the OP titled this thread the way he did.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:45   #498
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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im betting the pendent was in poor condition or was undersized for the boat in those conditions...
I wouldn't take that bet. The aft pendant may have been in bad condition and thus parted sooner than otherwise. The forward pendant wasn't a failure point. But ultimately it was the skipper's fault - aside from my previous reasons, he chose to trust his vessel to those moorings. It was his decision to accept them as is, and not add more lines or move out of the moorings. I realize this may be getting old but it really was down to failures of the skipper. Harsh - yes. But the truth.

Greg
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:55   #499
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
I wasn't intending to be critical of your post, only extending its logic.



Here is where we might disagree a bit. I don't see "probably" belonging in that sentence. The responsibility falls on the skipper - full stop. I don't mean to be pedantic here; the distinction is important. Sailors on their home turf tend to be a bit complacent. Seasoned cruisers have learned to identify threats and act to deal with them on a timely basis, even if that is inconvenient to their plans, sleep, or bank balance. Both legally and traditionally the skipper is absolutely responsible for the safety of boat and crew as his #1 job, and experienced skippers live and breathe that fact. Noobs often dismiss that as "too serious" - this is about having fun. Until it isn't. The trick to cruising is to take the serious steps to be safe while enjoying the rest - not ignore the threats and just kick back and enjoy. Getting this right is very important IMHO.

Greg
No criticism perceived, and all excellent points that aren't always as intuitive as some may believe. By qualifying the skipper's responsibility, I suppose I was thinking that if it turns out that the bow mooring was in fact properly configured, the forces on the cleat did in fact exceed what a bow cleat on that sized boat should be reasonably expected to withstand, and the skipper took whatever additional feasible steps he could while he was still onboard, then perhaps he's not as blameworthy as it appears. But if, as you say, he never should have been there in the first place and is responsible for his boat & crew regardless of circumstances, then his responsibility shouldn't be mitigated at all.
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:10   #500
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I think we all tend to look for someone to blame. And it may be that the moorings were not up to snuff, or the boat was not as strong as one might expect, or the weather forecasts unreliable. Whatever. I have no interest in assigning blame. It is a distraction. We can learn, in the service of our responsibility as skippers, the various things that can go wrong and learn how to anticipate and prepare for them. And we have discussed such things here, which I think have been genuinely useful (I liked the recommended mooring bridle for storm conditions). I just don't want that to obscure where the responsibility ultimately lies: the skipper. In this case the skipper's multiple mistakes led to the boat being exposed to danger, and sinking. I have met just too many skippers who will blame it on the boat, mooring, weather forecast, the harbormaster for not coming to the rescue, and anything else they can think of - which seems to never include their primary role. </rant>

Greg

[Edit: As I have posted before, I have no intent to beat up on anyone, and particularly not the unfortunate (unknown) owner in this case. I trust that he is a thoughtful person that has reviewed what happened in his own mind and drawn the appropriate conclusions for getting better outcomes in the future. Any seasoned skipper can rattle off a long list of mistakes he has made, if so inclined. Most of us got away with them without too much loss - that just makes us luckier, not smarter. It's the skippers who don't "own" their mistakes that worry me.]
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:16   #501
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pirate Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Did the owner actually post in this thread? If so, what post #? Or what's their username so I can look it up?

I can go back in this thread and bring up all the hate you guys sent at me for various things... the title of the thread... doubting the pictures... claiming how ridiculous it is to think that losing a cleat would sink a boat... that cleats should be made to pull out before the haul is damaged... washers are good enough... it's been very entertaining. I'd go back and quote you all to illustrate my point, but I've got to get back to work on the boat.

Wow post #501!
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:29   #502
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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But MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, is it "penDant" or "penNant"? Or is this another one of those "salon" vs. "saloon" deals? These are the critical matters which weigh on inquiring minds.
It's a mooring penDant. A penNant is a three-sided flag usually attached to a stay, shroud, or flag pole.
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:37   #503
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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It's a mooring penDant. A penNant is a three-sided flag usually attached to a stay, shroud, or flag pole.
Yes, now I remember! It was my centerboard penDant that snapped that fateful day off Virginia Beach!

Thanks OldFrog75.
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:39   #504
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27 View Post
Did the owner actually post in this thread? If so, what post #? Or what's their username so I can look it up?

I can go back in this thread and bring up all the hate you guys sent at me for various things... the title of the thread... doubting the pictures... claiming how ridiculous it is to think that losing a cleat would sink a boat... that cleats should be made to pull out before the haul is damaged... washers are good enough... it's been very entertaining. I'd go back and quote you all to illustrate my point, but I've got to get back to work on the boat.

Wow post #501!
You're a star! But try not to let all the attention go to your head.

No sign of the owner on here as I recall.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:25   #505
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I think had the skipper done his job of protecting vessel and crew the boat would never have experienced such a load on a single cleat. Others may expect their vessels to be strong enough to rescue them from their mistakes.
This, laidies and gents, is the heart of the matter.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:27   #506
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27 View Post
Did the owner actually post in this thread? If so, what post #? Or what's their username so I can look it up?

I can go back in this thread and bring up all the hate you guys sent at me for various things... the title of the thread... doubting the pictures... claiming how ridiculous it is to think that losing a cleat would sink a boat... that cleats should be made to pull out before the haul is damaged... washers are good enough... it's been very entertaining. I'd go back and quote you all to illustrate my point, but I've got to get back to work on the boat.

Wow post #501!
Just do a search for "Smackdaddy's" posts. I posted it.

You're welcome.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:27   #507
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Yes, now I remember! It was my centerboard penDant that snapped that fateful day off Virginia Beach!

Thanks OldFrog75.
You were saying?

See - the trick is, if you're going to be jerky, you have to be right.
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Old 09-01-2015, 19:05   #508
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Actually, according to the owner's account, the boat's sinking was primarily due to the aft mooring pendant parting, allowing the Hunter to drift into another boat and be holed.
The skydiver's parachute failed to open, the emergency chute wasn't up to it, but they wern't to blame, the real problem was the ground was too hard.
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Old 09-01-2015, 19:13   #509
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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The skydiver's parachute failed to open, the emergency chute wasn't up to it, but they wern't to blame, the real problem was the ground was too hard.
No - as Carina generally explained, the real problem was that he jumped out of a perfectly good airplane...not prepared.
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Old 09-01-2015, 19:23   #510
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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You were saying?

See - the trick is, if you're going to be jerky, you have to be right.
You have so much to teach us, Smack.

Have you reported to the Hunter owner, his insurance co., the harbormaster's office, the Hunter Corp., and the City of Avalon, CA, your "finding" that it was in fact the aft mooring penDant that directly caused the sinking and not the bow cleat as previously surmised? I'm sure they're all anxiously awaiting your expert opinion.
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