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Old 08-01-2015, 05:47   #436
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
I'm not familiar with the moorings in Avalon, and I generally avoid the use of moorings, anyway... But if I ever was to lie to a mooring for a big blow, here's what I'd do...

I think anyone who might ever find themselves relying on a mooring should be carrying their own dedicated mooring pendant. I really like the ones from Yale Ropes, their Polydyne Maxi-Moor II. I actually use one of these in 1/2" for my anchor snubber...





I also carry 2 others in 5/8" to be used as a bridle for a series drogue... But, if I ever were to consider lying to a mooring for a big blow, that pair would be put into service as a mooring bridle...

If you have any potential chafe issues on your foredeck, you'd want to consider the addition of a dyneema strop, such as the Cyclone Mooring Pendant from NE Ropes...





Better yet, with this rope being so easy to splice, simply make up your own...

Of course, with dyneema offering no stretch, this solution should only be considered in conjunction with a more elastic pennant such as the Maxi-Moor...

Finally, few out there know more about lying to moorings than Maine Sail... If he disagrees with anything I've said, listen to him, instead...

:-)
Thanks for these recommendations Jon. I couldn't help noticing how much larger the sizing recommendations are based on boat length, certainly when comparing to dock lines for obvious reasons, but also anchor rode. Gives you an idea of the loads that can be inflicted on your boat while attached to a mooring in a serious blow. And the largest size -- 1" -- is limited to a max boat length of 41'. Am I reading this right?

You also mentioned you use a smaller size as your anchor snubber. I'm assuming you shackle the thimbeled end onto your anchor chain?
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Old 08-01-2015, 06:33   #437
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Thanks for these recommendations Jon. I couldn't help noticing how much larger the sizing recommendations are based on boat length, certainly when comparing to dock lines for obvious reasons, but also anchor rode. Gives you an idea of the loads that can be inflicted on your boat while attached to a mooring in a serious blow. And the largest size -- 1" -- is limited to a max boat length of 41'. Am I reading this right?

You also mentioned you use a smaller size as your anchor snubber. I'm assuming you shackle the thimbeled end onto your anchor chain?
When sizing mooring pendants chafe is factored in..... The breaking strength of the line means nothing if you only have half of it left.... By far and away chafe is the number one failure mode I see in moored boats.

It comes in many forms:

*Chock Chafe
*Anchor, Sprit or Anchor Roller Chafe
*Bob Stay Chafe
*Chain/Ball Wrap Chafe

Then there is also heat failure due to friction......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Yale Ropes, their Polydyne Maxi-Moor II. I

..........you'd want to consider the addition of a dyneema strop, such as the Cyclone Mooring Pendant from NE Ropes...



Finally, few out there know more about lying to moorings than Maine Sail... If he disagrees with anything I've said, listen to him, instead...

:-)
Amen Jon!! The exact system I use on our boat...

Primary Pendants = Two unequal length Maxi Moor II pendants 7/8"

Storm System =
*1 - 1" Dynema storm pendant to secondary lazy pendant
*Chafe Pro Chafe Gear
*2 more unequal length polyester/polyester storm pendants attached to the primary and secondary lazy pendant


I have two articles on storm prep for moorings:

Mooring Pendants Thoughts & Musings

Mooring Preparations & Precautions



.
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Old 08-01-2015, 06:45   #438
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I have not personally inspected all the new entry level boats but I was looking at a near new Benni Cyclades and that's what they used, fender washers. I think it was NeilPride on this forum that suggested it was a standard way of backing a cleat but I may be wrong. My surveyor told me that several of the new boats used fender washers for backing but to be fair I can't remember the brands. Help me with this one Neil.
The shallow depth of knowledge and prejudice really astounds me at times.

First thing I have intimate personal knowledge of the two Hunter sailboats I've owned. So I'm not repeating stories of what some authority might have said last year. Now, you are wrong, the fender washers are not cheap ! They are stainless !

I have them on all my cleats, stoppers, winches and even my arch. Anyone looking at the vessel they are there to see. What you can not see is the heavy aluminum plate that was glassed into the deck when the boat was manufactured. The bolts are all threaded through these plates and are then terminated with a s/s fender washer and a nylock nut.

Hunter supplies a diagram of where these plates are located on the deck so the owner can add option items later.

Bob
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Old 08-01-2015, 07:18   #439
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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You also mentioned you use a smaller size as your anchor snubber. I'm assuming you shackle the thimbeled end onto your anchor chain?
Yes... There are plenty of ways of making that connection, from a simple chain hook, to the use of a spectra soft shackle which seems to becoming more popular... Evans Starzinger describes the system they used on HAWK, here:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/snubber.pdf

I've never tried the soft shackle arrangement myself, I'd be a bit concerned about it becoming locked or twisted to the extent that it might take a bit of time, or require the use of a fid or marlinspike to undo... Not to mention, I never want to be fiddling with an anchor chain in any situation - which of course is most likely to occur on a pitching foredeck at 0300 - that could at any time come under an unexpected/extreme snatching load... I want to be able to disconnect the snubber in a jiffy, keeping my hands as clear as possible from danger, and for that reason, I find this locking chain hook from Wichard works best, for me... I've yet to fail to be able to release the snubber from the chain in an instant with this setup, but of course that has to be done before the connection comes back over the roller... On some boats with a big projection of the anchor platform, or if the rode is led through a bowsprit, that could be difficult, and where a soft shackle might be more appropriate...

Wichard Chain Grip Hook


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Old 08-01-2015, 07:23   #440
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by BobH260 View Post
The shallow depth of knowledge and prejudice really astounds me at times.

First thing I have intimate personal knowledge of the two Hunter sailboats I've owned. So I'm not repeating stories of what some authority might have said last year. Now, you are wrong, the fender washers are not cheap ! They are stainless !

I have them on all my cleats, stoppers, winches and even my arch. Anyone looking at the vessel they are there to see. What you can not see is the heavy aluminum plate that was glassed into the deck when the boat was manufactured. The bolts are all threaded through these plates and are then terminated with a s/s fender washer and a nylock nut.

Hunter supplies a diagram of where these plates are located on the deck so the owner can add option items later.

Bob
OK, this was what I was asking about earlier. So it sounds like the backing strength some people are worried about comes from the aluminum backing plate plus the glassing. The stainless fender washers are only there to distribute some load from the lock nuts underneath. They don't serve as any sort of "fuse" to insure the cleats let go first in order to save surrounding laminate. Got it.

The only downside I suppose might be crevice corrosion in the event of water intrusion, and lack of accessibility for inspection or repair purposes.

Correct me if I've misstated anything.
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Old 08-01-2015, 07:33   #441
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Yes... There are plenty of ways of making that connection, from a simple chain hook, to the use of a spectra soft shackle which seems to becoming more popular... Evans Starzinger describes the system they used on HAWK, here:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/snubber.pdf

I've never tried the soft shackle arrangement myself, I'd be a bit concerned about it becoming locked or twisted to the extent that it might take a bit of time, or require the use of a fid or marlinspike to undo... Not to mention, I never want to be fiddling with an anchor chain in any situation - which of course is most likely to occur on a pitching foredeck at 0300 - that could at any time come under an unexpected/extreme snatching load... I want to be able to disconnect the snubber in a jiffy, keeping my hands as clear as possible from danger, and for that reason, I find this locking chain hook from Wichard works best, for me... I've yet to fail to be able to release the snubber from the chain in an instant with this setup, but of course that has to be done before the connection comes back over the roller... On some boats with a big projection of the anchor platform, or if the rode is led through a bowsprit, that could be difficult, and where a soft shackle might be more appropriate...

Wichard Chain Grip Hook


Thanks Jon. I like the looks of that hook -- secure enough but easy to undo in a hurry. That's why a rolling hitch can also work well, but can also be a bit awkward as you're reaching down over a pulpit, etc.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:08   #442
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
When sizing mooring pendants chafe is factored in..... The breaking strength of the line means nothing if you only have half of it left.... By far and away chafe is the number one failure mode I see in moored boats.

It comes in many forms:

*Chock Chafe
*Anchor, Sprit or Anchor Roller Chafe
*Bob Stay Chafe
*Chain/Ball Wrap Chafe

Then there is also heat failure due to friction......



Amen Jon!! The exact system I use on our boat...

Primary Pendants = Two unequal length Maxi Moor II pendants 7/8"

Storm System =
*1 - 1" Dynema storm pendant to secondary lazy pendant
*Chafe Pro Chafe Gear
*2 more unequal length polyester/polyester storm pendants attached to the primary and secondary lazy pendant


I have two articles on storm prep for moorings:

Mooring Pendants Thoughts & Musings

Mooring Preparations & Precautions



.
So it sounds like 1" would be fine for my 47' boat provided I adequately protect against chafe, which of course is applicable to any sized boat. I'll go back & re-read your articles now that my experience level may be approaching the "dangerous" point.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:14   #443
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
On our boat (not a Hunter, but a similar pariah in the BWC community), the backing plates are placed on the core, filleted and glassed in as part of the primary layup. Fender washers are used underneath the nuts to provide load distribution on the inner skin.

Mark
OK, I got this wrong. On our boat, the core is removed a good way around the cleat, the removed area is replaced by solid biaxial glass layup, the backing plate is placed on this and filleted, and then glassed over for a considerable overlap onto the surrounding area with another layer of biaxial glass.

I guess I never noticed that the core was removed from those areas, and thought that the extra thickness around the backing plate was from being put on top of the core and glassed over.

It is not often this boat surprises me anymore.

Mark
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:22   #444
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Thanks Jon. I like the looks of that hook -- secure enough but easy to undo in a hurry. That's why a rolling hitch can also work well, but can also be a bit awkward as you're reaching down over a pulpit, etc.
I should note that Evans once mentioned in a discussion over on Cruising Anarchy that he'd heard of one of those Wichard hooks "bending", if memory serves... Not a complete failure, mind you, just that after a big blow one of them might have been a bit tweaked... So, they may not necessarily represent the 'Ultimate' solution, in a REALLY serious blow...

Having said that, I rode out the passage of Hurricane Arthur last July on the hook up in Martha's Vineyard, and mine came back aboard looking as good as new...

Only issue with them, like most any snap shackle or lifeline gate hook relying on a sliding pin, you have to keep them clean and lubricated to keep it working freely... I always give mine a good rinse and a preventative shot of WD-40 or similar, if it's gonna be stowed out of service for any length of time...
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:36   #445
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
I should note that Evans once mentioned in a discussion over on Cruising Anarchy that he'd heard of one of those Wichard hooks "bending", if memory serves... Not a complete failure, mind you, just that after a big blow one of them might have been a bit tweaked... So, they may not necessarily represent the 'Ultimate' solution, in a REALLY serious blow...

Having said that, I rode out the passage of Hurricane Arthur last July on the hook up in Martha's Vineyard, and mine came back aboard looking as good as new...

Only issue with them, like most any snap shackle or lifeline gate hook relying on a sliding pin, you have to keep them clean and lubricated to keep it working freely... I always give mine a good rinse and a preventative shot of WD-40 or similar, if it's gonna be stowed out of service for any length of time...
We have used two of them on our bridle lines for many years until recently. Those capture pins bend often and jam so that they can be difficult to release. The good news is that they bend back straight easily.

Ours would bend pretty much every couple of weeks (full-time anchoring). The bend/rebend didn't seem to hurt it any - and they were in full-time use for over 6 years.

Twice, we have pulled up the anchor to find that a pin is missing completely. The only way this can happen is if the capture ring breaks and releases the pin out. The capture ring is welded on, so no easy way to preventatively put a new one on short of cutting the old off. The hook is basically useless without the capture pin.

Recently, the second occurrence of this happened and I decided to go with the Mantus chain hook instead of buying another Winchard. That was a mistake. The Mantus hook is very well made, does everything it says it does, and I can't fault anything about it other than its actual usability in practice. I fight this thing every time we anchor and loathe going to the bow now to anchor/raise anchor.

I may be trying soft shackles in the future. If I don't like these it is back to the Wichard.

But those pins do bend regularly in our experience.

Mark

EDIT: I just reread and see you referred to the actual hook bending. That would take a lot of force IMO, and we have never experienced that. Just the pins regularly bending.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:56   #446
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
We have used two of them on our bridle lines for many years until recently. Those capture pins bend often and jam so that they can be difficult to release. The good news is that they bend back straight easily.

Ours would bend pretty much every couple of weeks (full-time anchoring). The bend/rebend didn't seem to hurt it any - and they were in full-time use for over 6 years.

Twice, we have pulled up the anchor to find that a pin is missing completely. The only way this can happen is if the capture ring breaks and releases the pin out. The capture ring is welded on, so no easy way to preventatively put a new one on short of cutting the old off. The hook is basically useless without the capture pin.

Recently, the second occurrence of this happened and I decided to go with the Mantus chain hook instead of buying another Winchard. That was a mistake. The Mantus hook is very well made, does everything it says it does, and I can't fault anything about it other than its actual usability in practice. I fight this thing every time we anchor and loathe going to the bow now to anchor/raise anchor.

I may be trying soft shackles in the future. If I don't like these it is back to the Wichard.

But those pins do bend regularly in our experience.

Mark

EDIT: I just reread and see you referred to the actual hook bending. That would take a lot of force IMO, and we have never experienced that. Just the pins regularly bending.
I just read some reviews that were consistent with what you just reported on both the Wichard & the Mantus. The pre-made strops I've seen look kind of short and aren't exactly cheap. You can always make up your own, of course, but there's the potential for being difficult to undo as Evans' article mentioned. The cheapo devil's claw type hooks that I use now are a PITA and not secure. Maybe this is why a lot of people just stick with a simple rolling hitch.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:12   #447
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
I just read some reviews that were consistent with what you just reported on both the Wichard & the Mantus. The pre-made strops I've seen look kind of short and aren't exactly cheap. You can always make up your own, of course, but there's the potential for being difficult to undo as Evans' article mentioned. The cheapo devil's claw type hooks that I use now are a PITA and not secure. Maybe this is why a lot of people just stick with a simple rolling hitch.
Pardon my ignorance here. I use a dyneema soft shackle. If I had to get out in a hurry, I'd use a knife and just cut the damn thing off, rather than play around with hooks or locking hooks etc.

Am I missing something i should know?
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:28   #448
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Pardon my ignorance here. I use a dyneema soft shackle. If I had to get out in a hurry, I'd use a knife and just cut the damn thing off, rather than play around with hooks or locking hooks etc.

Am I missing something i should know?
Sounds like a winning plan to me! I wish I could get back all the $$$ I've spent on boat stuff that wound up not working as advertised. Live and (maybe) learn.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:57   #449
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Pardon my ignorance here. I use a dyneema soft shackle. If I had to get out in a hurry, I'd use a knife and just cut the damn thing off, rather than play around with hooks or locking hooks etc.

Am I missing something i should know?
Sure, that would work... :-)

However, given the amount of time and effort it takes me to fashion a soft shackle myself, I'd probably be more hesitant to do that than the situation might require... Usually takes me about an hour to make a Diamond Knot, and even then I only manage to get it right about 50% of the time... :-))

something I've learned recently, an ordinary kitchen knife with a CERAMIC blade are awesome for cutting spectra, they run through it like butter, and produce a very straight/even cut when you're working/splicing the stuff... Well worth keeping one on deck, if you're relying on dyneema rope for anything...

Also, for making up soft shackles, this is one of the better links I've ever seen...

Better Soft Shackle
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:55   #450
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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OK, this was what I was asking about earlier. So it sounds like the backing strength some people are worried about comes from the aluminum backing plate plus the glassing. The stainless fender washers are only there to distribute some load from the lock nuts underneath. They don't serve as any sort of "fuse" to insure the cleats let go first in order to save surrounding laminate. Got it.

The only downside I suppose might be crevice corrosion in the event of water intrusion, and lack of accessibility for inspection or repair purposes.

Correct me if I've misstated anything.
You're really focused on this "fuse" thing. First, in the case of the cleat construction described by Bob, the fender washers are really not spreading any real load to speak of - other than ensuring a larger surface area across the glass lam over the backing plate than just the nut on the glass.

I think Bob's point is that if someone that was uninformed just looked up underneath the deck and took a pic - they would probably just see two fnder washers over laminate. Then they would post that pic on a forum and talk about how flimsy Hunters are built with Micky Mouse Washers - not understanding that there is, indeed, a substantial backing plate under those washers, and under the laminate they see in their photo.

Now, on this point, I will admit that up until Ralph talked about the glassed in backing plates on the Hunter, and based ONLY on what I'd seen and heard in these various threads on CF, I likely would have been one of those that thought my cleats were only held in place by fender washers. I would have been concerned. And I would have been just as wrong as everyone else criticizing Hunter.

Finally, the "fuse" thing. I never said such a fuse would be a good idea for a cleat. I said there are some cases where it might be a good idea based on the particular design and construction of that item and that area. Simply not seeing a backing plate in a specific area certainly does NOT mean it's poorly engineered or built.

I think this is becoming clear now.
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