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Old 07-01-2015, 14:44   #361
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
So basically you're saying it's fine to use any excuse to pile **** on whatever it is that you don't like? Whether or not there's a real reason doesn't matter?
Looks that way. Just requires some clean-up on Aisle 5.
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:46   #362
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Its a chatboard 44. Unfortunately you will have to do your own research because:

a/. Its a Chatboard.
b/. Its a chatboard.

For every poster that gives excellent information or indeed, as in this case just passes on what they were told, there will 50 who dissent and take offence. Then there are other posters who give lots of information and when asked to supply the references, get upset and say "trust my word".

Everyone knew going in that the whole information was not complete and yet it didnt stop anyone speculating or commenting in 358 posts. You know why?

Its a chatboard.

Either wait for clarification and dont chat, or chat and realise that you will have to sort the chaff from the wheat yourself.
Yeah, true. I guess I just expect people to not state as fact something they don't actually know to be true. Or even worse, something they actually know NOT to be true. I call that lying.

Fine to have an opinion, everyone does. But it should be presented as opinion, not fact. IMO of course.
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:48   #363
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Way more. You certainly can't point out any flaw in the design or construction of these boats, no matter how small, without immediately being branded a "Hunter basher". Most Harley riders are aware of the flaws and embrace them, even joke about them.
Dude - point out all you want. As long as you're pointing out stuff equally and not slamming a specific brand or boat type - what's the problem? You're a yard guy, I'm sure you see all kinds of things for all kinds of boats. It would be great to see a wide range of issues, both good and bad, for a wide range of boats. THAT would be educational. Otherwise it's just petty burbling.
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:51   #364
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
This thread is pointing out a "flaw" that may in fact not exist. If the cleat was gone, leaving a gaping hole in the deck, fair enough.

And it's not just the title, it's the entire opening post. It makes a claim for which there appears to be no evidence so far.
Yes, the absence of evidence is the primary point which has been made very well via the content of this thread. But I would obviously agree that if someone read only the title & first post they would be left with an entirely different and thus far unsubstantiated opinion.
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:03   #365
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Yeah, true. I guess I just expect people to not state as fact something they don't actually know to be true. Or even worse, something they actually know NOT to be true. I call that lying.

Fine to have an opinion, everyone does. But it should be presented as opinion, not fact. IMO of course.
Agreed, but unfortunately there's plenty of this sort of thing coming from both sides, 44. Unless it's egregious enough for the mods to step in, the only remedy is to unsubscribe or take the time to expose it. It seems like the all-important credibility factor does seem to shake things out . . . eventually . . . so in that sense there's some degree of self-correcting. Uhhhhh . . . maybe.
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:37   #366
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I thought the cleat came off, the boat swung around, got bashed then sunk. Has this been disproved?
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:38   #367
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Yes, the absence of evidence is the primary point which has been made very well via the content of this thread.
Maybe Maine Sail can clear this up? He posted that the cleat did fail on the Hunter Forum, after speaking with the owner.

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Old 07-01-2015, 15:47   #368
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Maybe Maine Sail can clear this up? He posted that the cleat did fail on the Hunter Forum, after speaking with the owner.

Ralph
Yeah - I saw that. I've asked him if he'd post the story here. It's good to get the facts. It seems a cleat failure did contribute - but the sinking is quite a bit more complex than assumed.
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:54   #369
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Seems those claiming the OP gave false info might really be the guilty ones.

I say OP innocent until proved otherwise.
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:56   #370
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Here is the story. I pulled this from SBO with Maine Sail's permission:

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Just a follow up on this topic. I have had to delete a couple of posts outside of forum guidelines that were rude and not at all factual in this situation.

I have now spoken via phone with the owner (he's a member here and super nice guy) and he has confirmed that the cleat did in-fact depart from the vessel during the storm.

He stated the cleat had an approx 4" backing plate and it left a 4" +/- hole in the deck. He also stated that a boat next to him had the windlass and samson post ripped out during the storm as well. Swells were huge and snatch loads were a major factor on the short scope moorings in 7-8' seas. Only one cleat was in use at the time and it took all the load. It could have just as easily been the mooring pendant that failed, as happens most often.

After the cleat was torn from the deck she turned stern to the waves for a few hours until the stern mooring pendant failed, not the cleat. The boat then came broadside to another boat, and if I recall correctly was secured again. In the process the bow was beating on the stern platform of a power boat which eventually holed the bow of Susie Q and she ultimately sank.

I feel terrible for this owners loss and wish him the best in his search for a new vessel. I don't think there is huge panic level concern for Hunter owners reinforcing the cleat area, but it may never hurt to do that.. The owner of Susie Q. said that no matter what boat he buys he will beef up the bow cleats. I certainly can't blame him for this...

I have hopes that we can get some photos of the cleat area construction on the 460 which may help any owners who want to beef this area up with a visual reference point..

Let us also not forget or minimize the tragic loss of two lives during this storm.
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:09   #371
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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It also could have been banging off another boat and damaged the stern area / swim platform or even the bow near the waterline. Personally I don't think the cleat failed and hopefully when they raise the boat someone can show visual photo graphic proof of whether it did or did not. My money is on the cleat still being there and the pendant or mooring failed..... .
Let the record show that I officially eat crow on this point..
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:10   #372
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

So, you understand now Smack why is so important to beef up cleats in this case or any other important piece of gear exposed to hig loads??
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:19   #373
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
So, you understand now Smack why is so important to beef up cleats in this case or any other important piece of gear exposed to hig loads??
From the description, it sounds like the glass in that area needs to be beefed up. Adding larger backing plates (if that is possible) will only create a larger hole.

To be fair though, if other boats are having windlasses and samson posts ripped out, and if all the broken mooring gear that broke was in decent shape (speculation), these forces may have exceeded reasonable expectations for loads on those, or many other, cleats.

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Old 07-01-2015, 16:21   #374
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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So, you understand now Smack why is so important to beef up cleats in this case or any other important piece of gear exposed to hig loads??
Yes. But, again, this story is a bit more complicated. The cleat did have a backing plate (not the dreaded Mickey Mouse Fender Washers). The boat was secured by only this single forward cleat in extreme conditions.

After this initial failure, the boat then apparently held firm in the same conditions with its aft cleats...until the point that the pendant parted.

From there it was another boat's stern platform that holed the hull due to slamming together. And she sunk.

What does all this say about the cleat?
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Old 07-01-2015, 16:23   #375
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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What does all this say about the cleat?
It was on a Hunter.

I must say, you are a slow learner…

Mark
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