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Old 06-01-2015, 08:59   #256
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I think Minaret is pointing on those bolts..
That bolt is holding the SS strike plate on the forward part of the bow. It isn't holding anything and is just to protect the bow from the anchor hitting it. Why would it even need a backing plate?
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:01   #257
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Yep i do, and the forestay chainplate is the bow roller to,, SS plate...
Yet the boat comes through an F10/11 in the Southern Ocean with no damage.

So, either that didn't happen - or you guys might be wrong in your assumptions that "everything always needs to be beefed up".

Honestly, I'm starting to think you guys should be sailing steel boats. No way fiberglass of any thickness is as "strong" as steel.

Trust me, I learned a lot from Brent Swain. You'd like him.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:14   #258
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Trust me, I learned a lot from Brent Swain. You'd like him.
That explains everything...
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:17   #259
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yes, those would (obviously) be the bolts in question. Seeing as how they hold on the bow roller, which is also the chainplate, one would think a backing plate in order. But I suppose if a bolt with fender washer is already stronger than the hull, what's the point?
Those are the only bolts holding the bow roller? There are none underneath it, and those ones in the back aren't doing anything? Also, is there a glassed-over plate behind the chainplate? It looks like it sticks out. Even if not, those chainplate bolts are in shear - how does a backing plate help? If the plate was glassed in, I could see how it helps.

Mark
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:23   #260
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
But I think you fail to see your touting of the boat's capability in a larger context, which might call into question its suitability for an east about circumnavigation via the great capes or high latitude voyaging... Of course, there can always be other factors at play for such a change of plans, and I certainly don't wish to imply that their decision constituted any 'failure' on their part... But, the bottom line is, they aborted their planned circumnavigation after the first cape was passed, and sailed pretty directly back to the States, and put the boat immediately up for sale... So, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for some to wonder whether some issues with the boat itself just MIGHT have been a factor in their change of heart...
:-)
You keep bringing this up - and we've talked about it before on another forum. So, either you continue to disbelieve what Micheal himself clearly said for whatever reason, or yet again you're not being honest. Here is what Micheal said about why they were moving on to the skutsje:

Sequitur
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At 1014 we secured alongside the south float at Saint Augustine Marine. We had come 9375 miles from Puerto Montt, Chile in a little under six months with 47 ports and 111 days at sea. Sequitur, our Hunter 49 had safely and comfortably brought us through one Force 12 storm, three Force 11s and several Force 10s and 9s. We had bucked adverse winds, currents and bureaucracies. We were tired.
Sequitur
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This month marks six years since I ordered Sequitur, and five years since I took possession. For the past four years Edi and I have enjoyed many superb adventures in Sequitur as she safely and confidently took us in grand comfort and style to some very remote and wild corners of the planet. I turn 68 this summer and Edi's first old age security deposit has just arrived in her bank account. We are ready for some more sedate and gentle boating. As a part of our change in direction, we have listed Sequitur for sale with Hunt at SouthEast Sailing & Yachts.
Sequitur
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We had arrived back in Vancouver on Thursday evening, the 5th of July emotionally drained and grieving from having left Sequitur behind in St Augustine, Florida. She had for the past four years taken Edi and me safely, confidently and in grand comfort and style to some very remote and wild corners of the planet. We were still addicted to boating, and we were suffering from withdrawal symptoms. Realizing that we are approaching our best-before-dates for the type of cruising we had been doing, we have decided to look for a more sedate and gentle style of boating.
What's so hard to understand here? Perfectly understandable to me and likely anyone else reading this.

So, again, let's debate the issues. But let's at least be honest about the facts. There's no reason to twist things.

Micheal had nothing but praise for the boat. His biggest complaint was how it was commissioned by the yard guys that did the work:

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In late June we had listed Sequitur for sale with SouthEast Sailing & Yachts in St Augustine, Florida. We then spent the following week completing her refit in the yard at St Augustine Marine Center. We were impressed by the expertise and efficiency of the workers and by the quality of the work they did. The boat was brought to the best condition she has ever been in. All the shoddy work, errors and glitches from her fit-out at Specialty Yachts in Vancouver have been resolved.
And this brings up another point about Keno's keel problems...
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:24   #261
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
On the Avalon Harbour moorings... quite some years ago now, I read that the going price for a Catalina Island mooring was in the tens of thousands of dollars! I'm not sure exactly what that bought, but I think it was the permit to establish a mooring which you then had to supply and maintain yourself. As I understood it, when you were not using it, the mooring company rented it out for day use and kept the money raised. What a deal for the boat owner: spend huge money to be able to leave your boat in a death trap!

Jim
One clarification -- the prices of the 50-70 foot moorings are not tens of thousands but many hundreds of thousands and in some cases millions of dollars.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:24   #262
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
The thing I can't understand about the prods like that on the Hunter 49, is why the builder simply doesn't add a solid bobstay-style rod to give it some additional support?
I don't understand how that would help. It wouldn't counteract side forces or down forces (the problems others are jumping on here). It is an interesting idea for flying an assym, though.

Thanks for pointing out that BWC's also have crappy bow rollers! You may find crickets chirping here around that pointÖ

I won't argue that that Hunter bow roller implementation is the be all - but I do argue the point that a bow roller should be relied upon for anchoring forces, particularly those when all hell breaks loose.

Unless it is on a production boat, of course.

Mark
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:25   #263
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Those are the only bolts holding the bow roller? There are none underneath it, and those ones in the back aren't doing anything? Also, is there a glassed-over plate behind the chainplate? It looks like it sticks out. Even if not, those chainplate bolts are in shear - how does a backing plate help? If the plate was glassed in, I could see how it helps.

Mark
C'mon, have some respect. These guys are pros. That Hunter is obviously close to falling apart...at some point....during its 4 years and 20,000 miles...

Okay, you're right.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:27   #264
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

This doesn't have anything to do with the Hunter debate here, but these are some pictures I took on the morning of January first in Avalon.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:32   #265
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

More pics of the debris collected from the boats that were destroyed. I didn't see a any pieces bigger than about 10 feet.

The picture with the orange markers is what is left of a 3 foot high cement wall next to the Casino and Dive park. Granted, that wall was not in the best of shape to begin with, but it was there.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:41   #266
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
The thing I can't understand about the prods like that on the Hunter 49, is why the builder simply doesn't add a solid bobstay-style rod to give it some additional support? As is done on many boats like the Saga 43, for example... This simple modification would afford the additional benefit of being able to use the roller as an attachment point for an asymetrical or gennaker, and yet I've never noticed anyone do this... Few upgrades could be easier, no?
This is what I mean about this "beef it up at any cost" mentality. As cole pointed out, how does your new bobstay (which you just complained about on the CR) aid in the lateral forces you were just saying above were the biggest problem on the Hunter's bow-roller?

When you guys look at beefing anything and everything up as "upgrades" - when you don't really understand the engineering behind what's there and what forces it's intended for - it's not necessarily an "upgrade". It's just adding stuff you "guess" needs to be there.

And if what you're really trying to get to is a hurricane-proof boat...well, good luck with that.

You guys can point out all the fender washers you want - but unless we are seeing common failures of these areas under the standard use-cases for these boats...they are actually designed and built just right.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:50   #267
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Oh Robert, Robert, Robert - off the wagon so soon?

You know your addiction is out of control when you are not only hooked on smackdaddy threads, but actually proposing new ones.

Mark
Ya no kidding eh! LOL but he suggested we shut down that thread then I offered to scram. I do wish I had an addiction, well other than sailing,flying and motorcycles at least it might be something to look forward to but right now I have a little too much time on my hands waiting for the damn engine, not wanting to go too far from the boat as we are anchored with no room to sail if needed.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:57   #268
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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I lived in Southern California for over 30 years, not far from where this happened in Huntington Beach and Long Beach. The forecasts for Santa Ana winds can be quite fickle. Sometimes when they're predicted, they never materialize. Sometimes come in at double strength other times they're nothing more than a very light onshore warm breeze. I'm sure most everyone was caught off guard that day. There's no way that every one of those boat owners are going to take the ferry over to Avalon and move their boats to the other side of the island every time the Santa Ana winds are forecast, plus.... there really isn't anywhere else to anchor. The depth drops off to over 100 feet within a 100 yards or so most everywhere around the island. Another issue... there are few boat owners actually on their boats or in Avalon this time of year.... it's the off season.

Check your charts and know what you're talking about before accusing the unfortunates of poor seamanship.
This^.

The Santa Ana winds that strongly affect Catalina are nasty, but fortunately they're fairly infrequent.
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:00   #269
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Wind River View Post
This doesn't have anything to do with the Hunter debate here, but these are some pictures I took on the morning of January first in Avalon.
So the take away lesson here is that catamarans ride out storms without damage, while monohulls sink?

Mark
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:04   #270
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I have read the entire discussion. I want it to be clear that I have no dog in this fight. There have been some that have tried to be objective and fair. And, then . . . the protagonists on each side of the issue who have strong beliefs and biases. My comment is that the purchase of a boat is largely an emotional event aside from dollars exchanged. It represents a person's dreams, imaginings, hopes, and fears. It usually follows a period of financial sacrifice and planning before the purchase and a commitment from usually more than one person. It is made with countless years of experience or with little or none. It requires a dedicated captain to maintain it to Bristol standards and a relenting, persistent,ongoing expense. And, irrespective of cost, builder or size, it ceases to be an inanimate object but rather a living force that represents something about ourselves that separates us from the crowd and touches us in a place that most non boaters will never understand. So, owning a boat has been one of the most positive, rewarding and fulfilling things in my life from sailing prams, canoes, duck boats, fishing boats and sailboats. I am happy for those who share my love of boats and wish them good luck and good sailing. Rognvald
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