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Old 05-01-2015, 19:41   #211
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Old 05-01-2015, 19:51   #212
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
That was definitely a very good part of the story...but, alas, no. The bottom line is you're not being completely honest about this incident (and resulting damage) - and the photos show it.

First, as to the "40-mile-per-hour wind"...that might be true as for when the whole thing started, but here is the photo of the actual rescue:



There is enough wind to shred the genny - and that sea-state is pretty nasty. 40 mph?

Now, notice the anchor line running off to port? Look at what happens as the boat turns in the pounding surf - from the photo you posted:



Anchor roller is still attached, but as sailorboy pointed out, the other anchor chain has already sawed the hull apart in the surf and that other line to port is pulling the anchor roller off the boat.

Then you end up with this after many, many more hours beating in that surf - which was even worse that what was in that rescue photo above:



As you say, it was a very, very bad move by the skipper. The boat had nothing to do with this damage.

If anchoring off an exposed beach in a hurricane is how you think sailboats should be used - and, therefore, designed and built to that spec...you have the wrong boat yourself.

The good thing is, I can definitely see how Keno's anchoring experience on a Hunter could happen in this scenario.
Good pic's by the way. Yes these conditions would be very hard on any boat no matter the builder. That long cantilevered bow roller is an accident waiting to happen even though in these conditions any system would be well stressed. You can see it bent over even though it is still attached. I'd still recommend anyone using this boat for long term cruising would be wise to beef up the whole system. 95% of the time there would be no problem but I have seen similar systems on more expensive boats fail with an unexpected wind shift in an open road stead. These parts of a cruising boat need to be almost bullet proof.
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Old 05-01-2015, 20:14   #213
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Interesting that all seem to look for fault in design, engineering, weather forcasters, mooring configuration, etc... whatever happened to using prudent judgement and solid mariner intelligence when it comes to keeping you and your vessel safe? Everyone seems to blame anything other than their own lack of seamanship, marine knowledge and sensible actions when it comes to the ocean. I can't believe that insurance companies would pay off under such circumstances! With weather forecasts being more accurate by the year, any prudent mariner would ensure that their anchoring/mooring position would be more than adequate to handle the weather or they should get the hell out of there and find a more sheltered anchorage or get away from land, hove to and hang on. Phil
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Old 05-01-2015, 20:19   #214
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Wow now people are trying to say if a boat can not anchor out exposed during Hurricane Sandy it must be a design build problem.

You guys are just unbelievable.
Sailorboy,

Getting hit at an anchorage by unexpected 50-60 mile per hour winds is not that unusual when out cruising. Sometimes, there's no place to go when the unexpected wind or thunderstorm rolls in. Living here in new England you're certainly aware of how fickle the weather can be and just how powerful the winds can be during a thunderstorm.

It would be an excellent idea for you to beef up the bow roller on your boat before heading out full-time. Your boat having survived a Cat 1 hurricane at a mooring with no one aboard is quite different than you and your wife weathering 50-60 knot winds at anchor inside the boat, in an unsheltered anchorage, lee shore, with the boat sailing back and forth attached to the anchor and chain.

It can and does happen, and sometimes you can't do anything about it. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the waves. Include waves along with wind.... or see post #1 and the pictures and descriptions throughout this thread.


The key difference between having your boat secured at a mooring and at anchor, is that with your full rode set at 10:1, your boat will most likely be sailing back and forth quite a lot putting a tremendous sideways strain on your bow roller and forward deck structure. Unless you've already ridden this out at an anchorage, it's best you listen and learn from those who have.
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Old 05-01-2015, 20:44   #215
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If anchoring off an exposed beach in a hurricane is how you think sailboats should be used - and, therefore, designed and built to that spec...you have the wrong boat yourself.

The good thing is, I can definitely see how Keno's anchoring experience on a Hunter could happen in this scenario.

You "blue water guys" - knock yourselves out. Just take video when you do it. I really want to watch.
You really need to quit taking statements out of context and fabricating stuff to support your lame arguments. The only time I was hit by 50 knot winds aboard my Hunter 450 was when I was anchored inside Long Beach Harbor behind the oil island just outside Shoreline village. This anchorage is located inside the main breakwater (look at a map or chart). The wind changed directions 180 degrees when the Santa Ana winds came up and put me in between the shore and the island. If you've ever been there (I think not) then you would see how the scenario can play out... strong winds increasing from a predicted 40 knots sustained.... to an unpredicted 50mph with gusts to 70mph. the anchor dragged a little that night, but otherwise, I was as protected as much as possible. But the motion inside the boat was horrible.

Quit making false statements or suggestive remarks that I used poor seamanship and anchored unsafely on a lee shore, in the surf during a hurricane. It never happened except in YOUR mind.


From Smack's world on front of the computer, are you suggesting that all of the boat owners anchored or moored at Avalon that day were exhibiting poor seamanship when the wind changed 180 degrees and the waves rolled into the harbor... tearing boats from their moorings?
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Old 05-01-2015, 20:58   #216
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
Interesting that all seem to look for fault in design, engineering, weather forcasters, mooring configuration, etc... whatever happened to using prudent judgement and solid mariner intelligence when it comes to keeping you and your vessel safe? Everyone seems to blame anything other than their own lack of seamanship, marine knowledge and sensible actions when it comes to the ocean. I can't believe that insurance companies would pay off under such circumstances! With weather forecasts being more accurate by the year, any prudent mariner would ensure that their anchoring/mooring position would be more than adequate to handle the weather or they should get the hell out of there and find a more sheltered anchorage or get away from land, hove to and hang on. Phil
Bingo.
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:03   #217
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

OUt of curiosity, were the Santa Anas forecast? They usually are...

IF so, then the conservative skipper would have moved his boat from Avalon to an anchorage on teh other side of the island. Cruising sailors do this sort of thing routinely.

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Old 05-01-2015, 21:04   #218
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

You know what I LOVE about these type of threads.....

It helps me know who the Forum Ass holes are for future reference.

Check List....Updated....filed away in memory, so something good does come out of this thread after all!

Thanks
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:05   #219
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
Interesting that all seem to look for fault in design, engineering, weather forcasters, mooring configuration, etc... whatever happened to using prudent judgement and solid mariner intelligence when it comes to keeping you and your vessel safe? Everyone seems to blame anything other than their own lack of seamanship, marine knowledge and sensible actions when it comes to the ocean. I can't believe that insurance companies would pay off under such circumstances! With weather forecasts being more accurate by the year, any prudent mariner would ensure that their anchoring/mooring position would be more than adequate to handle the weather or they should get the hell out of there and find a more sheltered anchorage or get away from land, hove to and hang on. Phil
Agreed, but isn't insuring that your anchoring system can handle reasonably foreseeable contingencies also an important part of good seamanship?
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:06   #220
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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OUt of curiosity, were the Santa Anas forecast? They usually are...
No one wants to admit it or cast partial blame on the poor guy who just lost a boat, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the wind and swell coming into Avalon and get the hell out. But heck, the other guys are not leaving....so it must be safe to stay right.....

We have moved around the Island on many occasions to avoid what was coming while watching others booze it up and party...later to say..."no one saw it coming".....ya right.
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:08   #221
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Sniff Sniff i smell topic close in 3 , 2, 1,,,,,,,,,,,
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:20   #222
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

I lived in Southern California for over 30 years, not far from where this happened in Huntington Beach and Long Beach. The forecasts for Santa Ana winds can be quite fickle. Sometimes when they're predicted, they never materialize. Sometimes come in at double strength other times they're nothing more than a very light onshore warm breeze. I'm sure most everyone was caught off guard that day. There's no way that every one of those boat owners are going to take the ferry over to Avalon and move their boats to the other side of the island every time the Santa Ana winds are forecast, plus.... there really isn't anywhere else to anchor. The depth drops off to over 100 feet within a 100 yards or so most everywhere around the island. Another issue... there are few boat owners actually on their boats or in Avalon this time of year.... it's the off season.

Check your charts and know what you're talking about before accusing the unfortunates of poor seamanship.
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:29   #223
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Sniff Sniff i smell topic close in 3 , 2, 1,,,,,,,,,,,
I don't get it. Who's the a**hole?? He agreed with Jim & my post came in after.
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:29   #224
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
You know what I LOVE about these type of threads.....

It helps me know who the Forum Ass holes are for future reference.

Check List....Updated....filed away in memory, so something good does come out of this thread after all!

Thanks



Oh come on, you can't just come out and say something like this without telling us who's on the List! Now I'm dying to know....
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:37   #225
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Re: Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

Probably me, we have an ongoing love-hate relationship.
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