Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

It should be, I posted the facts as I get them. You can quote part of my response out of context to attack my integrity, my only guess is you hunter zealots like to get threads closed that have any disparaging remarks about your precious low-end sailor.

Not at all. I absolutely want this thread to stay open to it's conclusion. And will do my part to ensure it.

Maybe it will actually turn out that this was a case of a "Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure".

PS - "Facts" usually aren't defined as second-hand hearsay off of Facebook (that's not actually there). Just so you know.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Do you have a link to any more pics or where that one was found? When you zoom it it looks as if a bit of the stbd mooring pendant is still attached but other images may be easier to make out..

Wouldn't that be a shock, if the mooring lines had failed and not the cleats?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Here she is, the Hunter is back

With all this focus on this one boat - isn't anyone impressed with that other Hunter at 2:00 riding high and proud in the same area? Tough boats I'd say.

[ryon]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

...Here's another pic of the Hunter for those with super zoom skills and underwater filters.

Well, this answers one of the questions that I had: It sank right in front of the Tuna Club.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Exile

Avg. tensile strength of 1/2" Samson dockline is 7900 lbs. 5/8" is at 14,000 lbs. Maybe 3/8" is more appropriate at 4,500 lbs.? But that's only recommended for boat lenghths from 15 to 35'.

Yup. Know anybody who'd be happy with 3/8" dock line and anchor rode, even in a much smaller boat? I don't. I wonder if these boats come with a windlass sized for rode that small? I'm guessing they know perfectly well that no one in their right mind will actually use line that light, or read the manual and run the numbers. This means they get off liability free for any cleat failures. I see stuff like this in insurance claims in the boatyard fairly often.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Ahm - I assume you and Minaret actually noticed that the poster said this doc was for a 33' Hunter?

Try not to be too scared, Smack. As I stated, Samson recommends 3/8" dockline for a boat from 15' up to 36'. Would you really prefer to be towards the top of the scale in the conditions that hit Catalina & sunk over a half dozen boats, or do you think it advisable to perhaps bump it up one level to 1/2"? But you wouldn't really want to bother yourself with such minutiae. And that's just one vendor & one boat length recommendation. YMMV as they say on the internet. And what about a mooring line? Perhaps a bit more stress there, even in benign conditions, than your avg. slip with 4-6 lines attached to both ends of the boat and midships too??

Oh wait . . . I can just feel it coming . . . a good sailor would never expose his boat to conditions requiring a beefier mooring line or higher rated deck cleats. So once again, there can't possibly be anything wrong with the boat . . . especially if it's a Hunter. How'd I do?

Do you guys really have this much of a blinding grudge against Hunters? It's bizarre. And really brings into question your credibility.

I honestly didn't know that having a "blinding grudge" or other such personalized emotions towards an inanimate object was even possible. Passion yes. But a "grudge"? Against a boat?? Did a Hunter kick my dog or something? More to the point, how young of a guy are you? Oops sorry, kinda personal.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

Yup. Know anybody who'd be happy with 3/8" dock line and anchor rode, even in a much smaller boat? I don't. I wonder if these boats come with a windlass sized for rode that small? I'm guessing they know perfectly well that no one in their right mind will actually use line that light, or read the manual and run the numbers. This means they get off liability free for any cleat failures. I see stuff like this in insurance claims in the boatyard fairly often.

Yeah - I'm sure Hunter and Samson and Geico are all in cahoots to rip us off.



Bastards.

Exactly why I use 6" docklines on my boat. That's strong baby.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Yeah - I'm sure Hunter and Samson and Geico are all in cahoots to rip us off.



Bastards.

Exactly why I use 6" docklines on my boat. That's strong baby.

I'm not surprised on the length, but what diameter do you use?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy
Neil - here is an honest question: After now learning that Hunter glasses backing plates in, are you certain there was no glassed-in backing plate on that Bene you showed the pics of? If there was a glassed-in plate, that would certainly explain the visible presence of only the washers.

Originally Posted by neilpride

No glassed backing plates in the bene , 110% sure.

Uh-Oh. I guess we're back to fender washers being superior to proper backing plates since they'll just make sure the cleat rips out but not the surrounding decking.

[Island Time O25]

Echoing Uncivilized's comments I will add an advice of a very knowledgeable marine pro, or two - "when in doubt go a size larger. If your displacement can take it - go 2 sizes larger." That was said of rigging, tackle, any kind of backing or chain plates, shackles, etc.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Okay Keno - I'll try once again...with some seriousness...or at least as much as I can muster.



Here is what you said in that thread (edited for brevity - you can click on the arrow beside your name to see the whole post if you'd like):



I definitely expressed doubt (as did several others) that your situation was factually as bad as you painted it above. You then went on to post this:



Then this:



First, I assume you chose to anchor where you did, when you did, in the conditions you were cognizant of. How is the result of these choices in any way the boat's fault?

Furthermore, I know a lot of Hunter owners. Not a single one of them have ever complained about "their boats coming apart and people and stuff being flung all the way across the cabin" at anchor (unless in a huge storm). "Rolly", yes - definitely. Uncomfortable, yes - definitely. Destructive and life threatening? Never. You are the first. So, given your continual and very out-spoken dislike of Hunters - I take what you say with a HUGE grain of salt.

Add to that your attitude when someone I personally know who has a great deal of cruising experience tries to give you some advice on how to handle such a situation and you come back at him with this:



Then when he explains that, in fact, he has done it very successfully many times, and provides some additional tips for you, here is your reply:



...and my favorite part...



You obviously don't know who you were talking to. I do. So, in this long exchange - either you're infallible, or you just might be doing it wrong.

When I take in all of the facts above, it's very hard for me to blame Hunter for your issues.



Are you not continually pointing out the "shortcomings" of every Hunter out there? No offense, but I'm just not interested in your education, Keno. I can't take it seriously.



More facts and less hyperbole.

Impressive... you must have wasted a couple of hours digging up my quotes from past threads, and then cutting them up and taking them out of context so they'd fit your agenda. Who's the one that's obsessed? Do you save all my posts and quotes??

Very, very strange...... indeed.


I think this might be a new record on CF for taking quotes out of context to make a point, if in fact.... you believe you did.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Taras wrecked on the beach in Avalon
Well, I'm sad to say that the bigger boat on the beach in Avalon is indeed mine....Taras. She is a heavily built 52' Kha Shing custom.
All hell broke loose there on 12/30/14. Was dead calm sitting on the back on the boat enjoying a cigar and a bourbon, then the wind started. As the NE wind built, so did the seas. Avalon harbor was totally exposed and so were all of us in the harbor. I tied up to two 60' moorings.... Front and back. Had plenty of space around me and as I inspected the brand new 2" houser loops on the bow lines, I thought Taras was well secured. I was wrong.
As the 10 foot breaking rollers came thru us, my crew became seasick. I listened to Ch 12 and boats were breaking loose all around us. People were in panic as large and small boats crashed into each other. Several boats came loose and broke up on the rocks. Sailboats sunk where they were.
I got the crew off the boat and got us to a hotel on shore. I didn't sleep a wink in that hotel room as I listened to the wicked wind blow. I could hear the sounds of crashing boats in the background. I got up at 7:00 am and saw that Taras had come off the 2 new moorings and was on the beach....aground. The entire starboard side is crushed and caved in. She must have been pushed into the pier. I watched the large waves continue to beat and flood Taras. The sheriff dept would not let me aboard Taras to survey the damage due to the fact that 2 people died.... They were treating it as a crime scene of sorts. With nothing to do or see, I headed home on the flyer, glad my crew was safe and without harm.
I thank the harbor patrols bravery and service. They got us off Taras in very difficult seas. So sad to hear of the lost lives.
The vessel assist is telling me of several feet of water inside the boat. The strong Kha Shing hull is intact. Unfortunately, the house is extensively damaged and the boat may be totaled.
Best,
Taras

[FlyingCloud1937]

Sorry if anyone thinks I was the owner of Taras,

I posted the link first, then story... but at last the link didn't post.

So her is the real compassionate story.

Taras wrecked on the beach in Avalon - Trawler Forum

Lloyd, not me

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Taras wrecked on the beach in Avalon
Well, I'm sad to say that the bigger boat on the beach in Avalon is indeed mine....Taras. She is a heavily built 52' Kha Shing custom.
All hell broke loose there on 12/30/14. Was dead calm sitting on the back on the boat enjoying a cigar and a bourbon, then the wind started. As the NE wind built, so did the seas. Avalon harbor was totally exposed and so were all of us in the harbor. I tied up to two 60' moorings.... Front and back. Had plenty of space around me and as I inspected the brand new 2" houser loops on the bow lines, I thought Taras was well secured. I was wrong.
As the 10 foot breaking rollers came thru us, my crew became seasick. I listened to Ch 12 and boats were breaking loose all around us. People were in panic as large and small boats crashed into each other. Several boats came loose and broke up on the rocks. Sailboats sunk where they were.
I got the crew off the boat and got us to a hotel on shore. I didn't sleep a wink in that hotel room as I listened to the wicked wind blow. I could hear the sounds of crashing boats in the background. I got up at 7:00 am and saw that Taras had come off the 2 new moorings and was on the beach....aground. The entire starboard side is crushed and caved in. She must have been pushed into the pier. I watched the large waves continue to beat and flood Taras. The sheriff dept would not let me aboard Taras to survey the damage due to the fact that 2 people died.... They were treating it as a crime scene of sorts. With nothing to do or see, I headed home on the flyer, glad my crew was safe and without harm.
I thank the harbor patrols bravery and service. They got us off Taras in very difficult seas. So sad to hear of the lost lives.
The vessel assist is telling me of several feet of water inside the boat. The strong Kha Shing hull is intact. Unfortunately, the house is extensively damaged and the boat may be totaled.
Best,
Taras

[carstenb]

I also find it difficult to believe that a ripped out cleat would cause a baoa to sink. Unless the cleat actually held and the whole deck ripped out. Simply no way for enough water to enter through a hole made by a cleat. Assuming also the boat had its bilge pump turned on, then it would evacuate the water as it came in. So I simply don't believe the cleat caused the boat to sink. Some other catastrophic occurrance did.

Re cleats being ripped out, a couple of years ago a Halberg Rassy was tied to a dock on the island of Vejrø in a strom. Apparently the owner (on board) had not left enough slack in the line and with the winds approaching 50 knots, the upward motion of the swells in the harbour ripped his bow cleat out.

Halberg Rassys are generally considered "heavy cruisers" - but it could hold up to heavy swells.

[Kenomac]

Some of the armchair Google self anointed sailing experts seem to believe that if they watch the weather forecast and always anchor where the weather is nice or in a harbor, that they... as prudent sailors will never ever be in danger. Of course that same group is really ever in danger while writing 20-30 CF posts per day on their computer, defending their brand, but out on the water,... it's a different story.

Hopefully, the story of Tara's (above post) will begin to convince them otherwise (probably not), that bad things can and do happen when the weather changes, even.... when it's not predicted to do so.

Hats off to the brave harbor master and mates saving the many folks stranded on their boats in the mooring field. We've moored in that same spot several times.