Hull Shapes and Behaviour in Heavy Seas

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

So you haven't been totally discouraged by our negativity. (If anyone can pull this together then maybe you can, but that still doesn't mean it's worth it.) I can only see one photo where the bare hull, frames, welds, and one knee are visible - personally I like what I see and it all looks in proportion. None of the outside hull photos show the 'starved horse' effect of using too thin plate and too heavy welds. I'd be more concerned about a steel hull being an over-built 'dog' than under-built.

Any designer/builder of this size vessel likely worked to a set of 'small craft' rules - Lloyds, ABS, DNV, BV - read any of those rules to get an estimate of the scantlings for this size of vessel (or talk to any steel boatbuilder and show him photos). Don't any of your Bruce Roberts books give indicative scantlings or photos?

I agree about the photo and the overall “look” of the hull from a welding point of view. It has the auora of something done by a professional.

I think it’s worth a look, by someone you trust if not by yourself. Frankly I’ve been dissapointed trying to find a good steel surveyor in the states.

There are a couple of questions:
1-Was it built to any kind of reasonable standard?
2-What is the condition of the hull now?

1- You could order a set of Bruce Roberts study plans for a similarly sized boat. That should give you some idea of what to look for; rough order of magnitude. Just consider it a learning exercise. About $100 US.
BRUCE ROBERTS OFFICIAL WEB SITE Boat plans ROBERTS 58 radius chine steel sail boat

2- SOMEONE needs to eyeball the boat. I know that there is an expense in traveling all that way, but again, consider it a learning expense. You didn’t get to be an Aircraft Mechanic without taking courses and looking at what other folks did. I suspect, given your budget, you will end up looking at other big steel boats so you are just building your resume.

My gut says the steel needs to be 3/16” or thereabouts, minimum. If it’s less, don’t bother to even look at it. You may have to purchase a ultrasound tester to find out for sure. I think they are under $200 US. It takes a couple of minutes for a smart guy with a handful of steel cutoffs to figure it out.

Hopefully the boat is on the hard. Then you can wack at it to your hearts content.

First you want to find the very hardest places to get to, they are the ones that will not have had maintenance.

Second find any Place where there may have been long term exposure to water: chain locker, under sinks, transom under exhaust fittings, any hull penetrations for wiring. Trace where water would go, beat the hell outta it. Figure no less than two 4 hour days actively digging into the bulge to do an adequate job.

Some limited and well defined plate replacement is OK. That does not condemn a boat. Systemic corrosion is a killer.

She does not appear to have insulation. I don’t know how bad that is where the boat is. Condensation can be bad in a steel boat. Maybe that climate is dry enough for it to not be an issue.

Basically steel boats rot from inside out because water gets trapped on the stringers and can’t get to the bulge. It’s hidden behind carpentry so you don’t know. It costs a fortune to rip out the carpentry to do the fix and reinstall carpentry.

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If you get past this point, if the spars are OK, I would look into refitting using StayLoc terminals. Buy the wire in bulk and do the work yourself. StaLoc are easy and very reliable terminals. And latter when you refit again, all the long pieces can be recut for shorter runs and the terminals can be reused by replacing just the cones.

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I would not trust one word of any adverts, that 58’ Roberts above is 60,000 lbs, and that’s probably light. Nothing in the adverts is to be trusted. Pictures show sails, so they may be 10 years old. OR maybe a lot of good work was done and it is a diamond in the rough. Those mistakes may push off less adventurous souls. Works to your advantage. But you can’t tell until you can see.

I’ll give you one more homework exercise. Very pragmatic. Cheap download. I think this guy and you would get along great. Similar attitudes. Maybe try to reach him, some folks are pretty accessible.

Metal boat maintenance-A do it yourself guide by Scott Fratcher (Paperback) - Lulu

[Metal Boat]

There is something about this hull, it just looks too fair to have been done by an amateur. The claim is the designer had around 170 glass hulls built to his design and apparently this was his personal boat. I have been looking at **** boxes all my life and I don't think its that, but I do believe its broken a few people before me. It has had (supposedly) 3 owners none of whom finished the dream. I have been working on aircraft all my life and aircraft are exactly like boats they sweat on the inside. I spent a career digging out white fluff under rock wool insulation. If this hull has a corrosion problem I will find it, but knowing how it will handle I am just starting to grasp. I love aerodynamics and boats have so many similarities.



I can easily prove if the hull is strong enough If I decide to buy it but it will take time effort and money. I have decided I must know. The boat is tied up 100m from the slip in the photos and tomorrow I will contact the owner (shipwright who works on commercial fishing boats) of that slip who I have had a substantial conversation with already and I am going to pay him to do an initial report and give me current photos of what the deck etc looks like. He reckons the hull is sound and he is a yacht lover with his own steel yacht that he has spent years restoring. I cant see why it is worth his time to misrepresent the situation when he knows I will have to spend money with him. If I drop a cupla hundred so be it.


If the hull is indeed sound, a paint job is my specialty that bit is easy, the masts should be OK and I can make cables myself if need be, I have made lots of crimped cables just not that thick. Examining the sails should be straightforward. The real problems lie in two areas, I am worried about being seasick, and how to I get the boat home so I can work on it on my terms.....

[Metal Boat]

hpeer isnt Scott Fratcher the guy who has the cool catamaran smashing across the pacific videos?

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

hpeer isnt Scott Fratcher the guy who has the cool catamaran smashing across the pacific videos?

Don’t know.

[boatman61]

I would not sweat overmuch over the seasickness.. unless your one of the minority who start pucking as soon as the lines are cast off till they are tied up again.. if so buy an RV.
I have been sailing for a few years and still get queasy the first couple of days after a winter off.. one reason I choose good weather for the first couple of days on a delivery.. Get my sealegs in fair conditions.
If you can devote a coupla 3 days to living on the hook once the boats ready for the delivery home.. the gentle rocking and swinging around will go a little way to acclimating to constant motion.. normally by day 3 at sea the worst has past.
Keeping busy and your mind occupied also helps.

[hpeer]

Seasick.....volunteer to crew on a boat making a multi day passage. Find out. I doubt you will have problems given your aerobatic experience. But what about your family? That’s a bigger question. My Wife has largely acclimated to being on the boat but it took years.

Moving that beast will be a costly trick. But I guess you were thinking of towing? Might make more sense to move to where the boat is. Do your work there. You are gonna liveaboard anyway right? Rent an apt or buy a caravan.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

The real problems lie in two areas, I am worried about being seasick, and how to I get the boat home so I can work on it on my terms.....

What about taking the simple approach and just sail the boat home?

[hpeer]

He has months of work before it’s ready to sail. Needs new sails and standing rigging as a minimum for a start.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by hpeer

He has months of work before it’s ready to sail. Needs new sails and standing rigging as a minimum for a start.

So for now it's a big chunky motorboat with a six cylinder Lister to shove her along... at 24 kts? Masts won't fall down while motoring - just pick the weather.

I recall reading of a guy who bought a semi-derelict steel boat in Fiji and brought it back to NZ to work on; engineless, he piled it up on some beach in a storm I think.

[hpeer]

Good point, as long as you trust the engine and running gear.

How long a trip is it? I think he said 2,000 km, by land I assume. What by water?

OK, I see. First thru the Bass Straits then up the coast. Maybe 1,500 miles.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Metal Boat,

Man, you've got a really bad case of boat lust!

Anyhow, here are some questions to ask yourself and the admiral?

Can you remove the prop without having to remove the rudder first?

Can the smaller of you reach the cabin sole with your feet from being seated on the toilet? How about the rest of the seating?

Is the stowage suitable for voyaging?

Where's the working space in the galley?

Would the crew be happy in those berths? Lee cloths? forward of the mast? (maybe not, if anyone is prone to seasickness, being on the wind in the fwd "cabins" can be the worst part for them.) One head, any shower? wash machine?

The existing fitout is AWFUL, TERRIBLE, at least to me, and cavey, too.

Honestly, you and your good lady go look at it, clamber around it, and then, when you're thinking about that, start thinking again about the other concerns mentioned here: re-engining, is the build plate the proper thickness? do you really want galv rigging (it does have its enthusiasts, but so do s/s 316, and dyneema)?

What will need to be done to it will require huge infusions of money and time. I think if you look at it realistically, you'll see that even at $15K Ozzie dollars, if the plate is thick enough, and you want a giant ketch, and it's safe to take to where you live, and you can have it on a mooring and liveaboard in Qld. (better check on that one, lots of restrictions) and have holding tanks fitted (discharge zones in Qld) or a composting toilet.... and you will need somewhere to park yourself while doing all the work, a family of four cannot live on a boat at the same time as doing a major re-fit on it: vast areas become uninhabitable. It's the nature of boats.

If you finally decide the whole schmozzle is a good fit for your family, well, then, bless you and I wish you good luck with it, because MAN! are you going to need it!

If the boat is seaworthy, we do have some friends who sometimes do deliveries for people, and one of them is a sailing instructor, as well, so if you need help, I might be able to put you in touch with one of them....But seaworthy is definitely the issue, and even if those engines work, do you think it'll get you the miles from where it is to where you want it to be, enough to take on the risk of other people's lives?

Ann

[Don C L]

May have missed it, out of curiosity, do you know how much ballast is in that keel? Is it lead or iron?

[Metal Boat]

Originally Posted by Don C L

May have missed it, out of curiosity, do you know how much ballast is in that keel? Is it lead or iron?

This is an interesting question the ballast is listed as lead. Don't know how much is in there. How does this work? I get that you pour the molten lead into the keel and it cools and solidifies into the keel but what happens when all the water in the bilges sits on top wouldn't it permeate between the steel and the lead and start corroding?




Honestly you people are incorrigible, just like me. Yes I have a bad case of boat lust. On the one hand everyone says noooo don't touch this boat its bad news and then its like but it if you really wanted to do it you need to do it this way. Its like Lucifer whispering to a child don't worry it will be OK just do it, just do it, worry about the consequences later.... I mean really you people have the out and are watching a slow moving train wreck PMSL.



Ann looks to me like rudder off and then the prop shaft out. That prop would be frozen to the shaft for sure.


I have thought about motoring it home but there is no redundancy in the case of engine failure, risky and embarrassing if there is a a failure. If id had the engine running for 100 hours or so I might be more inclined to trust it.



Going to dig a bit more today and find out how much it will cost to put this boat on a truck and find some cheap hardstand.

[JPA Cate]

Nah, we're not Lucifering at you, just trying to get you to see that the hull building cost for replacement isn't worth a pence today, only if it is known to be sound. The is not beautiful from the stern. When you look up at the bottom, imagine yourself with a sanding block and that area to sand back...once a year, every year. And that's just bottom paint.

Whether iron or lead, you don't know if the ballast was bedded any way. You don't know enough to justify the cost of a flight to Melbourne for two, plus lodging, meals, and car hire. This, imo, is one of those "just say goodbye, dear" situations.

The other bit, if you do decide to do it, is that people do get boat lust and quit being rational about the boats. It can lead you into grievous difficulty. Boat lust plus a lot of self confidence without boat owning experience is the kind of mix the more experienced among us have watched more or less go down in flames, and expect that outcome after having witnessed it so often.

Something we haven't even considered here, yet, is what happens to the marital relationship when you become obsessively involved with the boat? Husbands and wives who get boats that require a whole lot of time and money --and this one really and truly will--need to be fiercely on the same page about it, or resentments are likely to build.

Everybody's an individual, and so when writing on a forum like this, at some point, there may be exceptions, but one really tries to write for what is most likely. Imho, this is most likely the train wreck, but it doesn't make me laugh at all, I think, more what a shame. Mate, heed the b----y warnings: the consequences can really be bad. There is the potential for you to wind up like the present owner, desperate to get rid of it, out of time, out of money, and never having had the pleasure of sailing it. You would be ever so much better off with something not such a huge project.

Ann

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Mate, heed the b----y warnings: the consequences can really be bad. There is the potential for you to wind up like the present owner, desperate to get rid of it, out of time, out of money, and never having had the pleasure of sailing it. You would be ever so much better off with something not such a huge project.

Ann

Great bit of wisdom there from Ann!

and as others often say: never spend more on a boat than you (and your family) are willing to lose....

just trying to keep you on an even keel here