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Old 14-02-2010, 14:56   #16
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Originally Posted by CastOff View Post
I am going to preface this question with an obvious answer; that if the rigging has been cared for, and is commensurate with the condition of the rest of the boat, then it could be a non issue. But what if the rigging shows age or 'normal wear'? How much would one spend for a Rigger to inspect the rigging on a boat being considered for purchase? I would assume it's done after a survey?

Since I'm not a tirekicker type person, as I don't like the same when buying or selling in the used market; how does one negotiate with a seller for the 'cost of replacement rigging' that they feel is 'servicable'? Same with 'original sails' that may or may not be servicable?
In terms of negotiating price - assuming you are comparing the selling price to other comparables, it makes no difference on a 8+ yr old boat. The price you negotiate is simply what you want to pay for it, knowing you'll want to replace those items. A seller really is not going to reduce their price on list items - but only on items that would give the expected selling price. Most seller price (or should) 20% over lowest NADA value and will work from there to get to their sellers price assuming price negotations.

Regarding SS rigging and something I have experience with. "HG" was 20+ yrs old and visually the SS was still in great condition. I had no problems, but trying to keep the racer part of racer / cruiser I wanted to reduce the rigging weight. Additionally, sometimes just being old - and running a boat hard - did not want to incur any surprises.

SS is generally reliable and externally - if it does not have barbs extruding or evidence of corrosion - you will probably be good with existing rigging. The hidden dangers of older rigging is loss of tensile strength or internal corrosion / fatigue. There are methods to determine tensile strength with rigging in place - but the best is to remove and perform the tests. SS rigging is designed using materials that are suited for marine applications and can last for 40+ years if the right materials were used.

Cost of replacing rigging (standing only), from a selling viewpoint:

HG is 38 foot with a mast height of 58' approx.

SS replacement was the lowest cost and could be done at a yard by their rigging 'experts'.

Rod is about 15% more expensive in base cost but in overall cost about 35% more (note I had a vendor discount for parts). It requires more labor and specialized tools to install and is not a DIY or a typical thing a yard will do. A yard will measure - send specs to the company that does the production and cutting and such for the rod and ship via freight. When received, yard installs.

Then you have synthetics / aramids / composite rigging. this is 30% more expensive using SS as a base with 60% more regarding actual cost. My backstay is composite but I left all other standing rigging rod.

If you include running rigging etc... mine are all synthetic and was 40% over just using the typical.

For mine - it was 25K overall and about three months on the hard due to the rod rigging and backstay not delivered in spec.

That will give you an idea of hybrid costs to expect on this size of boat (mid of the line).

Now - if I was (won't happen) place the boat up for sale , I can use 10% of the overall costs to justify a higher seller price and not back down. That is about it.

You bring up a good point. Surveyors do not climb masts. Its up to the buyer to bring in a rigging expert and most will tell you "its not a science." They can't tell more then you if fatigue is present less visual cues. Personally, wasted money spending on and most riggers will talk you out of hiring them for that purpose.

Cues when doing a sea trial:

Prior ask seller wen the last time the rigging was tuned. Then once out do the measurements for the standing rigging as if you would if you were tuning the rig.

Great deviations - can spell tensile strength failure. All the rest is visual. I would recommend hiring a rigger to climb the mast to inspect the masthead or DIY.

Round about explanation - but hopefully it gives you some insight what to do prior to buying if you have doubts and to others what to expect if replacing your rigging. The most expensive (less engine I think) upgrade you can make.
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Old 14-02-2010, 15:47   #17
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I believe it is at Navtec site that they discuss the age / ageing issues and how many miles / years you can count on. Google them out.

I am not a rigger but I often check rigging on boats prior to crossings. It takes me about 30 minutes to go about the deck and about 1 hour to check the mast side. Altogether you can expect a rigger to charge you for max 2 hours work for a rig check (a visual check) on a 40 footer.

If you are not certain about the age / condition of the rigging I would replace it on any boat older than 10 years (esp. if you want to do any racing/offshore type of sailing). If all you do is weekend sailing within reach of your home harbour you may stick to rigging that is older if there is nill visual sign of ageing.

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Old 14-02-2010, 17:35   #18
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Thank you for your reply Jody, it was informative. Barnikiel, I ususally leave the important things up to folks who make their living at them like Surveyors, Riggers, Mechanics. I respect their knowledge and try to learn from them when I can. I suffered severe back and head injuries ten years ago, and don't do much bending (or thinking! LOL!) if I can help it. I had thought my sailing days were over back then and sold off 95% of my sailing gear, only to get to this point in my life and feel like I can give a <30ft boat a shot. I guess I forgot more than I recall these days about sailing, but I'm going to catch back up by getting on the water.
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Old 18-02-2010, 04:17   #19
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What is being stated about barbs and obvious signs of wear or corrosion is all good. I am in the process of shopping for my next boat. Along with my trusty leatherman, I take a small ball peen hammer and a small hard rubber hammer for finding soft spots on the deck and hull. I also take along a sheet of emery cloth to polish the swages on the rigging connections to reveal hairling cracks that normal tarnish and light rust spots may hide. Also you can use the same emory cloth on stanchion bases and any stainless you are interested inspecting. If you find any hairline cracks in the swages at deck level, assume there more aloft and plan on replacing the standing rigging. Replacing the standing need not be and overly expenxive undertaking. Do one at a time, with the mast standing. Secure a line in place to support the mast instead of the strand you are replacing, go aloft, take it down, take it to your rigger, have him make you a new one and replace it. This can be down over a short period of time and if your rigging is not too bad, will not keep you from sailing between replacing different strands. Keep some if not all of your old rig for emergency replacements in case of "need be". I always just plan on replacing the standing rigging when I buy a boat if there is not documented proof of it being done within the last five years. Peace of mind, plus spare rigging. As for sails, there are plenty of used sails available just about anywhere there is sailboats. Many lofts have barrely used if not new but undelivered or unpaid for sails that they can cut to fit your boat for a tenth, or less, of the price of a new sail being specially made for your boat. Especially if you are a cruiser looking for efficient and reliable sails. Most lofts are happy to get rid of this inventory and are very obliging in cutting them to fit, usually have it done in a very short time. Racers, well you are going to pay the price for the newest and best sails. Engines? I have seen new ones fail for one reason or another and some that seem to go on forever, a little blue smoke and adding a quart of oil once in a while. However, I must admit I like having a new or recently rebuilt engine in prospective nest boat. As in all pricing of used boats, the price reflects the effective life expectancy of existing equipment. If the boat is a good deal, buy it, do the work yourself. Your "expert" may not be available to you in the next port. Since cruising is "repairing your boat in exotic places, learn all you can before leaving home port".
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Old 18-02-2010, 04:22   #20
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Sorry CastOff. I didn't read the last part about back and head injuries.
glad to hear your getting back out there. There are alot of great experts and mechanics out there, but also quite a few of questionable ability and integrity, beware and ask many questions, especially ones you already know the answers to so you will know if they at least know as much if not more than you do.
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Old 18-02-2010, 08:04   #21
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What is being stated about barbs and obvious signs of wear or corrosion is all good. I am in the process of shopping for my next boat. Along with my trusty leatherman, I take a small ball peen hammer and a small hard rubber hammer for finding soft spots on the deck and hull. I also take along a sheet of emery cloth to polish the swages on the rigging connections to reveal hairling cracks that normal tarnish and light rust spots may hide. Also you can use the same emory cloth on stanchion bases and any stainless you are interested inspecting. If you find any hairline cracks in the swages at deck level, assume there more aloft and plan on replacing the standing rigging. Replacing the standing need not be and overly expenxive undertaking. Do one at a time, with the mast standing. Secure a line in place to support the mast instead of the strand you are replacing, go aloft, take it down, take it to your rigger, have him make you a new one and replace it. This can be down over a short period of time and if your rigging is not too bad, will not keep you from sailing between replacing different strands. Keep some if not all of your old rig for emergency replacements in case of "need be". I always just plan on replacing the standing rigging when I buy a boat if there is not documented proof of it being done within the last five years. Peace of mind, plus spare rigging. As for sails, there are plenty of used sails available just about anywhere there is sailboats. Many lofts have barrely used if not new but undelivered or unpaid for sails that they can cut to fit your boat for a tenth, or less, of the price of a new sail being specially made for your boat. Especially if you are a cruiser looking for efficient and reliable sails. Most lofts are happy to get rid of this inventory and are very obliging in cutting them to fit, usually have it done in a very short time. Racers, well you are going to pay the price for the newest and best sails. Engines? I have seen new ones fail for one reason or another and some that seem to go on forever, a little blue smoke and adding a quart of oil once in a while. However, I must admit I like having a new or recently rebuilt engine in prospective nest boat. As in all pricing of used boats, the price reflects the effective life expectancy of existing equipment. If the boat is a good deal, buy it, do the work yourself. Your "expert" may not be available to you in the next port. Since cruising is "repairing your boat in exotic places, learn all you can before leaving home port".
Completely agree with the first part of this post - plan on a routine replacement of standing rigging as described. Excellent advice. I would have to disagree with the very last point "If the boat is a good deal buy it and do the work yourself" Whereas I fully subscribe to the theory that you should know your boat inside out and be able to carry out repairs or rmaintenance jobs - (particularly at sea), I think the best boat to buy is one that had been well looked after rather than one which seems a bargain but will find the buyer in the boatyard rather than on the water as his enthusiasm drains away. My boating mentor advised me "Buy a boat which has been someone's pride and joy - they will have invested buckets of time and money into her and that will never be reflected in the price"
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Old 18-02-2010, 08:31   #22
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Sorry CastOff. I didn't read the last part about back and head injuries.
glad to hear your getting back out there. There are alot of great experts and mechanics out there, but also quite a few of questionable ability and integrity, beware and ask many questions, especially ones you already know the answers to so you will know if they at least know as much if not more than you do.
No problem Larry I can appreciate your concise post, as well as those that came before as information to work from. I tend to be the patient, and listening type these days more so then in the past. Your advice seems sound enough to help myself check the rigging. I have always been suspect of rigging on a 'new to me boat',regardless of what the previous/current owner says, and have a professional check it. I just don't understand the premise of "it's SS and if it's not broke don't fix it" The rigging on a monohull is under strain from the day it goes up (think pumping in a Seaway, corrosion from the elements, possible damage from incorrect storage,etc).
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Old 18-02-2010, 08:44   #23
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Completely agree with the first part of this post - plan on a routine replacement of standing rigging as described. Excellent advice. I would have to disagree with the very last point "If the boat is a good deal buy it and do the work yourself" Whereas I fully subscribe to the theory that you should know your boat inside out and be able to carry out repairs or rmaintenance jobs - (particularly at sea), I think the best boat to buy is one that had been well looked after rather than one which seems a bargain but will find the buyer in the boatyard rather than on the water as his enthusiasm drains away. My boating mentor advised me "Buy a boat which has been someone's pride and joy - they will have invested buckets of time and money into her and that will never be reflected in the price"
EXCELLENT ADVICE, AND IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO I have decided to wait until I have increased my boat buying fund; rather than buy a boat that needs a refit. This way i can find such a previous owner and be assured that the boat has been shown proper care, leaving little for me to do as far as repairing systems before being able to get on the water. Not to say that i won't read the manuals and familiarize myself with all the systems, just that I won't have to put time into repairs when I could be out sailing.....which is why we all buy a boat in the first place
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Old 18-02-2010, 11:26   #24
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5 - 7 years ofr stainless wire and 6 - 9 years for rod. When you seal stainless away from oxygen, it corrodes faster. With Rod rigging, for the most part, the rig gives way before there are any signs of wear and tear.

Even the stainless wire may not give you any warnings.. Especially when the turnbuckles are taped and oxygen cannot get to the stainless (that's why it's not a great choice for underwater). I see boats that have the same rig for 20 years and be fine.. But that is also way up north here where the salt content isn't as high and the use of boats is limited to (for most people) weekends and a few weeks holiday's during the summer time. And around here, sailing is only an option when there's enough wind. We find ourselves actually sailing about 50% of the time.

We have galvanized rig. about 1/2 the cost of stainless and when it starts to rust, you replace it. AND it's longevity is twice or more of stainless.

Yes, we have a ferro boat so it fits aesthetically too, but I like the fact that I can SEE when it's time to replace. At this point, our rig is 18 years old and our inner headstay is showing signs of the need. But that's the only one. (the others will be replaced too over the next year - one at a time)

Stainless looks great. Bright and shiny and so forth. It's longevity is not as long as we would like it to be and if you USE your boat, count on it NEEDING replacement every 10 years.. 8 if you are in the tropics - at the most. Rod or wire. Whatever it looks like. Don't wait for your mast to come down.

John Sampson replaced his galvanized rig about 2 years ago.. This was after 25 years and 8 trips to New Zealand and back. He said it didn't really need it, but he wanted Pat (his wife) to be assured it was good after he died (his health was failing at the time - he passed about 8 months ago).

If I had one of those shiny expensive plastic boats I'd maybe use stainless, just because it looks better, but I prefer galvanized.. You can get it anywhere, work it anywhere and it's cheap.

As far as getting the seller to come down in price because of older rig... Don't expect it. Why? because the price ought to reflect the age and condition of the boat. I agree that it is better to spend more on a boat that was babied and looked after. Sometimes that is out of range price wise and we get what we can afford to get. But to take 25k off the selling price of a 20 year old boat because it needs new rigging isn't good practice..

Look at what the vessel's excellent condition/refit book value (if you can find it - yachtworld is a good place to determine market value in various conditions), look at the boat you are interested in. Take the repairs needed and the cost of said repairs. Deduct them from the value of the boat in excellent condition and see what the difference is. If the difference is less than the asking price - offer that.. If it is higher than the asking price you are most likely getting a good deal. (survey survey survey) If the boat you are looking at is priced at 75K and there is one in immaculate condition/ fresh (2 years or newer) refit on Yachtworld for $150 k... What one would you buy if the 75K priced one one you are looking at needs a further 75k in repairs? Value is always better than bargain. And you get sailing faster. And if when youa re looking at the vessel you find it needs 75K in repairs.. You can probably add a further 50% because of what you'll find when you start tearing things apart.

My $.02.
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Old 18-02-2010, 18:31   #25
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Stone Age, first, my condolences on the passing of your fellow sailor. Seems he lived the cruising life many dream of, and was a thoughtful person. Doesn't get any better than that in this life I think.

I have never heard of galvanized being used for rigging; but I'm on the East Coast here LOL! I think it would be practical in the sense that I have seen galvanized wire rope in hardware stores around the World in my previous travels. That would make it an easy replacement in many ports if need be. If it fairs so well i am surprised to have never seen it in person on a sailboat before. Even SS wire rope can have an 'industrial appearance' to it on some boats. Thanks for the information regarding SS and it's relationship to atmospheric oxygen. Learned something new today.
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Old 18-02-2010, 18:36   #26
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By the way, the boat I had looked at and 'quibbled' over the rigging's condition with the owner had/has been on the market for over a year. I was offering to split the cost with him; but when he would not budge on his price I walked. I'm not 'desperate' to buy a boat much to seller's chagrin I have encountered who are eager to offload their boat's in the failing economy. Nope, I can wait and find the one that works for me after my inspection, and a thorough survey.

By the way there is a beautiful S& S designed 'Yankee 30' in Edmond WA, on YW, that I looked at very closely. A bit too much teak and varnish work on the outside for my future, but it should ring someone else's bell looking for a 30fter I am sure.
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Old 18-02-2010, 20:42   #27
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Hi CastOff... galvanised wire is still used on the old traditional boats this side of the pond... it lasts longer, is stronger and a hell of a lot cheaper than stainless.... you can do it yourself, no swaging machine needed.... the only down side is your pristine white sails get rusty marks where they come in contact with the rigging...
Hence all those romantic looking tan sails of yester year...

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Old 19-02-2010, 09:31   #28
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Surprised you have never heard of galvanized. It's great. No, it's not the prettiest thing. But it suits our boat and others because of the style and what we want her to look like. East coast and never heard of it? wow .. Surprises me. That's the birthcoast of boatbuilding on this continent. Well.. Glad to have opened your eyes to somethign different.

Thanks for your condolences for My friend John Sampson. I not only lost a friend, The enite sailing community lost a pioneer in the industry. John Sampson was the "grandaddy" of ferro Cement boat constriction in North America. I remember many nighs on Stormstruuter with a bottle of whiskey between us after hunting for our boat and just because.

He was a good man that wanted nothing more than to see Ferro Cement boats become mainstream because of the quality that COULD be if they were built properly. And to sail. The stories of his south pacific journey were incredible and inspired me even more to get 'er done and get out there.

He is missed.

Raise a glass everyone - to John Sampson, of Sampson Marine. THE guy who brought Ferro Construction to North America.

Cheers.
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Old 24-02-2010, 12:35   #29
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Here, Here! A Glass raised to Mr John Sampson!

Boatman that is SOME KIND of nice Leeboarder in your photos! If only they brought some of those over her to the East Coast USA. Looks like a cargo ship that would make a great liveaboard to me...but then I'm partial to Sharpies and leeboards too!
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Old 24-02-2010, 12:59   #30
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Stone - do you paint the galvanized rigging?
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