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Old 10-05-2014, 19:58   #76
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

I think the new wind generators are quite a bit more effective-- and quieter. Plus they work at night, when you are often moored or anchored and the boat isn't moving.
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Old 10-05-2014, 21:59   #77
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

I think the new solar panels are much cheaper than the old ones, much quieter than wind generators, and much less maintenance than wind or water generators.

I haven't done the math for all our cruising, but looked at our 4600 mile run from Panama to Hilo. In the 29 day passage, we motored 110 hours, or 16% of the time. Of course, 106 of those hours were in the first 13 days when we were trying to get to the trades. We did have wind/solar/water enough so that we didn't have to run the engine to charge.
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Old 11-05-2014, 04:45   #78
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

We did 15,000NM on our tour, we put on 1200 engine hours, probably a couple of hundred charging batteries, we motor at 4-5kn, so probably motored about 4500nm
of the total, so about 30% of the time and I would say most of the motoring was done in the med, where we were filling the tank once a month, in the Caribbean we filled the tank on arrival and on leaving.

We were in no rush and would only motor when the sails were flogging.

Im sure if we had a longer time scale we could have motored far less in the med, but waiting for the right winds there can take weeks.
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Old 11-05-2014, 15:28   #79
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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I think the new solar panels are much cheaper than the old ones, much quieter than wind generators, and much less maintenance than wind or water generators.
I have a 130W solar panel as well. But even on a sunny day in the middle of Summer I will get 35 amp hours, maybe a tad more. Not enough, and I don't really have room for more than one more panel. That's fine for trickle charging when my boat is on her mooring, but I will be cruising full time starting this Summer and I like refrigeration 24x7 and all of the other things that use electricity on a boat without having to burn diesel.
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Old 11-05-2014, 15:43   #80
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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SNIP

I would say most of the motoring was done in the med, where we were filling the tank once a month, in the Caribbean we filled the tank on arrival and on leaving.


SNIP
I would bet the location you are sailing in has a lot to do with how much you motor. In the Florida Keys and the Bahamas it is very common to wait a couple of days for the right weather window for what are normally short daylight length passages. As others have posted in different locations the winds can stay in the same direction for weeks, or even months.

Just another reason I like sailing in the Keys.
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Old 11-05-2014, 23:38   #81
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I think the new wind generators are quite a bit more effective-- and quieter. Plus they work at night, when you are often moored or anchored and the boat isn't moving.
More effective and quieter than what? And based on what assumptions?

you should look up an article from Yachting Monthly magazine where they properly investigated how much you can expect to receive from the latest wind generators. Of course it does depend on where you cruise - in the Med you might pick up the Mistral everyday for a few hours. But even the very best wind generators generate NOTHING below BF5/15kts of wind, and only half the power at 20kts of wind. So the theory is all well and good but how often do you see that wind? I think you will be disappointed.

Besides that, I find them very expensive considering the wattage delivered. A Superwind costs close to €3000 installed if bought new.

Everyone must choose the setup that they are happy with. But for me, large battery banks are a better investment than a wind generator. Solar is always good as well but for some boats, like mine, it can be very hard to find a place to safely install them. So we have chosen hydrogen + shore power with diesel as the backup and a small solar panel to top up. The hydrogen makes sure we arrive with full batteries wherever we go. We can then last at least 5 days at anchor before we need a sail to top up or start the engine. If we had solar + wind, we would arrive at anchor with half drained batteries and we would struggle to top up. So, if your consumption is (very) low, then solar + wind can keep you going indefinitely, depending on acreage you have available for panels. But we chose for better charging whilst underway.


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Old 12-05-2014, 01:08   #82
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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More effective and quieter than what? And based on what assumptions?

you should look up an article from Yachting Monthly magazine where they properly investigated how much you can expect to receive from the latest wind generators. Of course it does depend on where you cruise - in the Med you might pick up the Mistral everyday for a few hours. But even the very best wind generators generate NOTHING below BF5/15kts of wind, and only half the power at 20kts of wind. So the theory is all well and good but how often do you see that wind? I think you will be disappointed.

Besides that, I find them very expensive considering the wattage delivered. A Superwind costs close to €3000 installed if bought new.

Everyone must choose the setup that they are happy with. But for me, large battery banks are a better investment than a wind generator. Solar is always good as well but for some boats, like mine, it can be very hard to find a place to safely install them. So we have chosen hydrogen + shore power with diesel as the backup and a small solar panel to top up. The hydrogen makes sure we arrive with full batteries wherever we go. We can then last at least 5 days at anchor before we need a sail to top up or start the engine. If we had solar + wind, we would arrive at anchor with half drained batteries and we would struggle to top up. So, if your consumption is (very) low, then solar + wind can keep you going indefinitely, depending on acreage you have available for panels. But we chose for better charging whilst underway.


Onno
Say, Jazzy, in yesterday's post you said that you had "just received" your Hydrogen. So, how do you know that it "makes sure that we arrive with full batteries wherever we go"? Or are you parroting the adverts from the OEM?

And "no reduction in speed"? That is not what most folks with hydro turbines of any sort report.

Actually, I am a hydro enthusiast. I built a home brew one for our previous boat, and it did work pretty well. One would hope that a professionally designed one with more modern (by over twenty years) components would do even better... but unsupported enthusiasm isn't very convincing.

Incidentally, we find our Air-X to be helpful on passage as well as at anchor, but not as good as our old hydro turbine. On the other hand, tht old trolling generator was a PITA to use, so there are the usual compromises that crop up in anything to do with a boat!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:24   #83
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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More effective and quieter than what? And based on what assumptions?

you should look up an article from Yachting Monthly magazine where they properly investigated how much you can expect to receive from the latest wind generators. Of course it does depend on where you cruise - in the Med you might pick up the Mistral everyday for a few hours. But even the very best wind generators generate NOTHING below BF5/15kts of wind, and only half the power at 20kts of wind. So the theory is all well and good but how often do you see that wind? I think you will be disappointed.
Well, as all sailors know, the power of the wind increases geometrically. From my research, most of the new wind generators will produce as many or perhaps a few more amp hours as my solar panel in 10 knots of breeze on average (since the wind blows for 24 hours), and a lot more than that in windier and gustier conditions. It's pretty windy where I sail.

I'm sure the new hydrogenerators are good too, but the boat has to be moving 4 knots plus to produce any kind of power. I'm sure they are great on a Open 60. But in a place like the Med which is pretty windless at times, don't they have the same drawbacks as a wind generator? You have to motor to get the boat moving fast enough to use the hydrogenerator.
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:38   #84
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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SNIP

most of the new wind generators will produce as many or perhaps a few more amp hours as my solar panel

SNIP
If this is true I have to wonder about your solar panel.
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:54   #85
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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If this is true I have to wonder about your solar panel.
It's a perfectly good 130 Watt panel that produces around 35 amp hours on a typical sunny say in the Northeastern U.S., , just like every other decent 130 watt panel.
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Old 12-05-2014, 08:04   #86
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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It's a perfectly good 130 Watt panel that produces around 35 amp hours on a typical sunny say in the Northeastern U.S., , just like every other decent 130 watt panel.
For a couple of hundred dollars, maybe twice that if you need a new controller, you could get a modern 235 watt panned and probably double your output. For the cost of a wind generator you could get a completely new solar power system that would probably produce a couple of hundred amps on a typical sunny day.

For power generation solar is way out in front in bang for the buck. As an extra added attraction it is quiet and easy to maintain with no moving parts.
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Old 12-05-2014, 19:54   #87
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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For a couple of hundred dollars, maybe twice that if you need a new controller, you could get a modern 235 watt panned and probably double your output. For the cost of a wind generator you could get a completely new solar power system that would probably produce a couple of hundred amps on a typical sunny day.

For power generation solar is way out in front in bang for the buck. As an extra added attraction it is quiet and easy to maintain with no moving parts.
No, I really couldn't. Solar is great when there's lot's of sun, but a 235 Watt panel isn't going to produce "a couple of hundred amps" per day.
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Old 13-05-2014, 11:16   #88
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

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Say, Jazzy, in yesterday's post you said that you had "just received" your Hydrogen. So, how do you know that it "makes sure that we arrive with full batteries wherever we go"? Or are you parroting the adverts from the OEM?

And "no reduction in speed"? That is not what most folks with hydro turbines of any sort report.
I'm quoting other users. I said no measurable reduction which is overstating it - apologies for that (about 1/4 knot is reported which for a cruiser I find more than acceptable).

But if the device turns out to be crap, you will hear it from me. No need to be so cynical.


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Old 17-05-2014, 21:26   #89
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

On the topic of how much motoring versus sailing, I think that your autopilot/windvane situation will have an impact on passages. I have never sailed with a windvane, but I have with an electric autopilot that came with the production charter boat. When we crossed 100 miles of open water we found that the autopilot just couldn't keep up with sailing. Maybe with a steady 12 knots of wind on a beam reach it would have been okay, but we found that in real life our options were to steer by hand or run the engine to support the autopilot.
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Old 18-05-2014, 04:59   #90
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Re: How much Time is spent Actually Sailing?

Then your sail trim was poor or there was something wrong with your autopilot
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