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rwidman · 07-03-2015, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Note that I said "These Days) - the question was rhetorical.

We beat the hell out of boaters regarding sewage dumping yet we still "allow" municipalities to keep their pipes hooked up to rivers.

It doesn't have to be pipes connected to rivers. If a pipe breaks or a pond overflows, the sewage goes downhill until it meets a stream or river. The military base upstream of my marina has spilled sewage into the river twice since I've lived here.

But accidentally spilling sewage into the river and intentionally putting something on the bottom of your boat that hurts the environment are two different things. Nature will take care of the sewage in a few days or weeks. Some chemical compounds stay around for years. I'm all for finding a middle ground.

Island Time O25 · 07-03-2015, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Note that I said "These Days) - the question was rhetorical.

We beat the hell out of boaters regarding sewage dumping yet we still "allow" municipalities to keep their pipes hooked up to rivers.

Same with fishing limits. One decent size trawler on an average run will probably fish out more fish than all of the country's fishermen combined keep in a year. Yet the gov't gets up in arms if your seabass is 1/2 inch too short. But most of the time doesn't really do anything about the foreign trawlers prowling in US waters.

**Ex-Calif** · 07-03-2015, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

It doesn't have to be pipes connected to rivers. If a pipe breaks or a pond overflows, the sewage goes downhill until it meets a stream or river. The military base upstream of my marina has spilled sewage into the river twice since I've lived here.

An accident. Sure. Now who gets fined and who cleans it up? Oh,wait. It's the government - we pay...

Can't I be held criminally liable if I spill oil or sewerage off my boat? One turd from me vs. "couple hundred thousand" gallons? Why ain't the dude running the plant doing a perp walk in front of his 8 y/o on his way to jail?

Everyone today just has excuses for bad behavior. No one seems to be accountable.

Sorry - back to bottom paint.

svlamorocha · 08-03-2015, 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

But accidentally spilling sewage into the river and intentionally putting something on the bottom of your boat that hurts the environment are two different things.

[rant on]
Those who really study environmental engineering and toxicology know there is one more factor that drives impact: use.

If you paint your bottom with TBT and put it in a marina where water does not circulate (say completely artificial marina like Marina del Rey) the TBT will accumulate and generate horrible consequences such as transexual little animals, etc.

If, on the other hand, you paint your bottom with TBT (say Islands 44 with Ton Boost) and set off in a circumnavigation in which the stops are in places where water actually moves (ie anchorage with 0.5-1kt current) you will very likely not contribute to any concentration that produces measurable damage. You will not even need to touch your bottom, hence saving YOU from toxicity. Most importantly, your clean bottom will last longer (saving environmental impacts through the supply chain) and your boat will sail faster. If you go to the Galápagos there is no risk that your bottom will carry little critters that will make a mess with the local echosystem.

Compare this to the reality I saw there last year, when all the boats coming to the Galápagos with echo-friendly bottom paint had accumulated so much growth in the trip from Panama that they "had to" hire someone to illegally scrub their bottom at the arrival port before the bottom inspector came in..

But in the real world those who know about stuff and the consequences of policy alternatives do not call the shots. You will see copper paint banned in the US when most copper comes into the water from copper sulphate used elsewhere by municipalities, which keeps going. So you ban copper paint because someone else dumps copper sulphate.

I could go on with the silly european REACH approach that would ban water and table salt if they were allowed to apply to those things the same rules they apply to some great environmentally-friendly chemicals such as boric acid and borax.
[rant off]

rwidman · 08-03-2015, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

..........If you paint your bottom with TBT and put it in a marina where water does not circulate (say completely artificial marina like Marina del Rey) the TBT will accumulate and generate horrible consequences such as transexual little animals, etc.

If, on the other hand, you paint your bottom with TBT (say Islands 44 with Ton Boost) and set off in a circumnavigation in which the stops are in places where water actually moves (ie anchorage with 0.5-1kt current) you will very likely not contribute to any concentration that produces measurable damage. ................

There's nothing untrue about your statement but you can't really pass a law that says Harry can use TBT because his boat keeps moving while Bill can't because he keeps his in a marina.

What bothers me is when they give commercial or military vessels the right to use a better paint and restrict the recreational vessels to inferior products.

fstbttms · 08-03-2015, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

...they give commercial or military vessels the right to use a better paint and restrict the recreational vessels to inferior products.

This is a misconception. Commercial vessels (at least in this country) are not allowed to use anything you are not. And while the U.S. Navy is exempt from any anti fouling regulation, they too use the exact same anti fouling paints you do.

And this notion that there is some magic anti fouling paint out there that only the privileged few get to use? It doesn't exist. There's copper and there's tin, baby, and nobody gets to use tin.

rwidman · 08-03-2015, 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

This is a misconception. Commercial vessels (at least in this country) are not allowed to use anything you are not. And while the U.S. Navy is exempt from any anti fouling regulation, they too use the exact same anti fouling paints you do.

And this notion that there is some magic anti fouling paint out there that only the privileged few get to use? It doesn't exist. There's copper and there's tin, baby, and nobody gets to use tin.

I believe the Washington State ban of copper applies only to recreational boats. I know it's not in place yet but that's what I read. I could be wrong.

fstbttms · 08-03-2015, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

I believe the Washington State ban of copper applies only to recreational boats. I know it's not in place yet but that's what I read. I could be wrong.

You are right and I stand corrected on that point.

mikereed100 · 08-03-2015, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

This is a misconception. Commercial vessels (at least in this country) are not allowed to use anything you are not. And while the U.S. Navy is exempt from any anti fouling regulation, they too use the exact same anti fouling paints you do.

And this notion that there is some magic anti fouling paint out there that only the privileged few get to use? It doesn't exist. There's copper and there's tin, baby, and nobody gets to use tin.

TBT is not diffucult to find in Asia, where it is usually available in boatyards as an additive if you ask. I tried some once but did not really notice an improvement over the TBT-frree Jotun Seaforce 90 that I had used before. Maybe this is why the USN doesn't bother with it.

svlamorocha · 08-03-2015, 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

TBT is not diffucult to find in Asia, where it is usually available in boatyards as an additive if you ask. I tried some once but did not really notice an improvement over the TBT-frree Jotun Seaforce 90 that I had used before. Maybe this is why the USN doesn't bother with it.

There is more to good TBT antifouling than just throwing some TBT in it.

If legal for your boat try "Islands 44" antifouling that already comes with TBT and add the additional Tin Boost from teh same manufacturer to it and you will see a difference. Works wonderful in the Caribbean!

tucamonday · 08-03-2015, 08:58

If we connect Bob's butt to the pipe will it paint my boat bottom?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

fstbttms · 08-03-2015, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

TBT is not diffucult to find in Asia...

Yes, I think we all understand that TbT is still in use in various unenlightened places around the world. My remarks however, were specific to the U.S.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

...where it is usually available in boatyards as an additive if you ask.

No paint manufacturer will warrantee their non-tin product if you add TbT to it. This I guarantee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

I tried some once but did not really notice an improvement over the TBT-free Jotun Seaforce 90 that I had used before. Maybe this is why the USN doesn't bother with it.

The U.S. Navy doesn't use TbT paints because:

1.- Theses paints are extremely damaging to the environment, and believe it or not, the U.S. Navy is at the forefront of developing clean and green anti fouling technology, even though they are not required to be.

2.- While the Navy could use TbT paints if they wanted to, it would be a public relations nightmare in this country if they did.

3.- Most seafaring nations do not allow TbT paints in their territorial waters and the U.S. Navy has business to do in these places.

Nicholson58 · 08-03-2015, 12:39

[QUOTE=fstbttms;1766889]The black growth is actually algae that has penetrated the surface of the paint. This typically occurs when the paint is losing effectiveness and is not being cleaned frequently enough. There comes a point when you have to make a decision about how aggressively you want to clean the bottom versus how much paint you're willing to remove. The "black algae" requires aggressive scrubbing, as you know. So either you're willing to live with it and not have a truly clean bottom or you're willing to scrub it out of the paint now and hopefully clean the bottom on a frequency that prevents algaic penetration from reoccurring.

Thanks for the great instructional videos. A few questions:

Why two shaft zincs?

Was there no anti-foul on the prop or shaft?

My prop is the original stuff from 1984. Great shape Hundested variable pitch. There is only a shaft zinc. No strut zinc and no prop zinc. It was coated with hard anti-foul when we got the boat 6 years ago. My observation on zincs here (Great Lakes) is why bother. We all have them but they last 15 to 20 years. There is also a massive zinc plate on the hull which is bonded to the entire inside of the boat with copper sheet. We are headed for salt water soon so I have stocked up on new & spare zincs.

Presently, we are in the Great Lakes. Nothing hard grows here, only algae slime. The nylon brush you used is standard issue in various forms. I have also used a large scotch bright sheet on a floor tool (think floor varnish applicator). Is the Scotch Bright appropriate for salt water?

Are you using a Brownie or other Hookah type system?

fstbttms · 08-03-2015, 13:09