How Do I Design a 3' Draft Boat to Be Seaworthy ?

[Cherp]

Oh, and Thames....consider yourself very lucky. You are in august company on this thread. Two yacht designers -Fred Amor and Bob Perry - have commmented on this discussion. Fred's designs have sailed the world. Bob could probably have retired undefeated on a single design alone -the Valiant 40.

[Wand]

This one (Acrohc Australis) is perhaps too small and draws too much, but there are lots of ideas amongst the writings of some of these (Famous Small Boats).

A member of our club has built a replica of the first boat on that list - Bligh's open boat, the one he and a score of men were cast adrift in after the mutiny - and has sailed it across the Gulf a few times in preparation for his attempt to relive that most amazing of journeys. So that boat was a liveaboard for a while for 19 men, but not quite in the sense you'd mean it.

Another member has built a Phil Bolger sixteen footer which he has sailed across the Gulf and down to Kangaroo Island many times. Last summer he toured the Spencer Gulf ports in a month long trip. And he is now 70 years of age. He's been through some significant blows (30 knots is just a breeze around here) and says the boat always performs with ease. And that boat can definitely go up any creek; up any storm drain.

But I reckon you couldn't do better than a Maurice Griffiths bilge keeler; his boats were built for your local waters and his designs, like the Eventide, have crossed plenty of oceans. There's an Eventide group (you'll find them on the net) and it won't be too hard to find one in the UK needing work to complete or revive; just about everyone commenced building one in their backyard after the war. We have one at our club on a mud berth; always sits up nicely when the tide's out.

I agree that 20' would be challenge to live on, although I do know one bloke who sailed his Van de Stadt Primaat, all 23' of it, around the coast to Queensland many years ago and last I heard he was still living aboard. Lots of folk these days, so used to voluminous vessels with everything which opens and shuts, find it hard to comprehend that 28' was a biggish vessel not too many decades ago. There was a time, for example, when it was said that the H-28 had circumnavigated more than any other single design. So that's another option, but it's not a bilge keeler; better to go with Maurice IMHO.

[Fred Amor]

There is a question that no one seems to have asked. What is important to you about the project. Is it the enjoyment of creating a work of art or do you actually want to go sailing?
We built a 39 foot world class cruiser in about a year and a half - with time out to make the money to build the boat and take a holiday in the middle of the worst of our BC winter weather - we were building outdoors with no roof of any sort! (plus we build another 39' hull (which I sold) The second hull took two weeks to build and glass). "We" were - myself, with 20 years of boat building experience - although this was my first strip planked boat - Nancy - then a new friend, and her two teen aged sons - all 3 with little to no boat building experience.
The advantages of building a strip planked hull are many. They fair themselves to a large degree and if you use the technique we used on Timeless you can build it over a fairly simple set of temporary frames set fairly far apart and edge nail the strips as you go. If you glass the outside then roll the hull over you can knock out the frames, glass the inside and use the bulkheads, berths, seats, cupboards and tanks as stiffeners and an integral part of the hull strength. The quality of the wood does not have to be as extreme because the glass adds so much strength and, if you do a careful job of the glassing, the wood shows through beautifully inside the boat.
Planking and glassing a twenty odd footer should only take a couple of weeks for the hull and deck.
In such a small boat I would glass in the bulkheads and any tanks into the hull before I put the deck on.
I would put a lot of camber in the deck and the deckhouse roof since it adds strength without weight and will help the boat to right itself in a knockdown situation.
Nancy, who had previously only designed houses, designed the Timeless after an intensive period of study that lasted from October til March at which time the hull design was completed! During this period of time she only took short breaks to eat and slept whenever she couldn't keep he eyes open any longer! My role of teacher consisted of answering questions - mostly about why the authors of different boat design books sometimes had wildly differing opinions as to what made a good boat! We started looking for a place to build the hull in April that same spring. Because of the tight financial situation we built the boat outside in an industrial complex! We finished the hull and deck in a month - including the glassing! The lofting and temporary building frames took a couple of days and was done on three sheets of plywood laid out on the ground. We only lofted the stations not the profile or sheer. The very accurate drawings were done at 3/4" to the foot and the maximum discrepancy was only an 1/8" in a couple of spots on the full sized lofting! One thing we did learn was to shape the leading edge of the temporary stem - so the strips end where they should!
Building a precise model will take about the same amount of time as building the real thing but will of course cost much less and will teach you all the same lessons!
The big advantage of a model is that you will find out if all the stuff you need or want will actually fit in the hull! The biggest disadvantage is that if you are a certain type of person you will be uninterested in doing the exact same thing twice and will never build the boat - know yourself is the first rule of life!
Of course if you do not know yourself yet - boat building will certainly teach you who you are! There is an old saying that time spent building boats does not come out of your lifespan!

[Thames]

Thank you Fred for the great encouragement! I'm definitely taking note of these design recommendations.

Yes I am honoured to have such people contribute. It's interesting how the professional yacht designers approached this thread in completely different ways. But both their opinions make perfect sense.

I've a question about the cheap secondhand GRP cruisers so commonly available in the UK (eg. Hurley 22, Westerly Pageant) are they well insulated? And more importantly, as I will be a continuous cruiser (no shore power) is it possible to fit a wood-burning stove? I know ideally one heads down to the Med in Autumn but for the next couple of years I need to stay - I've got to live aboard on the river Thames all winter even if the water freezes!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Thames

Thank you Fred for the great encouragement! I'm definitely taking note of these design recommendations.

Yes I am honoured to have such people contribute. It's interesting how the professional yacht designers approached this thread in completely different ways. But both their opinions make perfect sense.

I've a question about the cheap secondhand GRP cruisers so commonly available in the UK (eg. Hurley 22, Westerly Pageant) are they well insulated? And more importantly, as I will be a continuous cruiser (no shore power) is it possible to fit a wood-burning stove? I know ideally one heads down to the Med in Autumn but for the next couple of years I need to stay - I've got to live aboard on the river Thames all winter even if the water freezes!

The Virgo 23 was the best insulated of the small boats I've owned... the others mainly had carpet on the hull sides or the origional lining..
However if you were prepared to move the loo and move it to the area btween the V berth, hang the door/curtain to give privacy from the saloon when in use...
The loo room would then be a great place for the heater between the fore cabin and saloon, its what I did in Spearfish with a Taylors Parrafin heater.. only I used a porta potti in the V area.. But the sea loo would be fairly str8 forward.
A wood stove would be akward in most of the 22's... except the Westerly's, another 6ft headroomer... big interiors... heres an example... there's one for sale on the Truro for just over a grand... no pic's but maybe worth the call...
Westerly 22 Boats for sale Ireland, Westerly Used boat sales, Westerly Sailing Yachts For Sale Westerly 22 Sailing Cruiser - Apollo Duck

[hpeer]

Just briefly glancing through the posts here I did not see the Presto Sharpie mentioned anywhere.

I would google that up and perchance take a peak at this thread elsewhere.

30' plywood sharpie [Archive] - Boat Design Forums

[Fred Amor]

You are welcome Thames
I suspect that very few of the boats you mentioned ever made it to the west coast of Canada so I have no experience with them.
Here is a link to the Hurley owner's association page:
Hurley Owners Association FAQS Page
The references to insulation on the Westerly seem to refer to the food box, engine room, and back stay but no mention of either the hull or deck being insulated.
If you have the oppourtunity I suggest you take a look at each boat you become interested in with an eye to using it as you mentioned.
The good news about GRP hulls is that almost any modification that you want to do can be done. The quickest solution is to keep looking until you find either the closest to what you want and need or the one that steals your heart! I have lived aboard and been frozen into the ice on the Fraser River in BC, Canada and can attest to the fact that insulation and lots of wood are very important! Uninsulated boats rain all over your parade!
Another problem you will have is that the mattress will get wet from the bottom up - you will have to flip it up each morning and dry it out.
We solved the problem by putting a 60 watt light bulb under the bed but since you do not have access to electricity that obviously will not work!
If you have to work and will be away from the boat for many hours and since you will need to sleep at night perhaps you should consider a little diesel cook stove/heater. Your boat will be warm when you get home or wake up and you can cook on it. Diesel also stores and transports better than wood.
I like the diesel heat myself and the steady heat does tend to keep the boat drier inside.
Any clothing stored against the hull - even if the hull is insulated - will become wet from condensation.
I hope this helps
Fred

[Skylark]

Introduction to the junk-rigged Corribee Mingming
Home - My Paradox "Johanna"
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[Thames]

Originally Posted by Fred Amor

The good news about GRP hulls is that almost any modification that you want to do can be done.

That's interesting I always thought it's easier to make changes to a wooden boat, hence my interest in the cold-molding technique.

Originally Posted by boatman61

The Virgo 23 was the best insulated of the small boats I've owned...

I saw the Westerly for £1200 looks like a real bargain! So could I easily insulate that? Are there any other common secondhand boats that are insulated?

The Virgo Voyager does seem like a good choice to live aboard, if it is insulated it has 6' headroom too. They are several available in the £4000-7000 range. I'm assuming the mast is deck-stepped, with no compression post, and that metal pole inside the saloon is purely for the table. Do you reckon it would be easy enough to put a tabernacle on the mast?

[Pete7]

I think the idea you came up with in one of your early conclusions of buying a GRP yacht and using it for a few years whilst deciding what direction you want to go is probably the safest idea. At least it gets you on the water now, for minimal cost and low risk.

If you are thinking of living on board then I would go back and look again at the Hirondelle and prefereably get aboard one. Indeed before you do anything, you need to view the yachts that Boatman has suggested to you with a view to spending time on board if not living on board. BTW if you want to live on board with the GF thats just added 15 feet and £20k to the requirement. But do go and view and now is a great time, afterall who buys a yacht just before Xmas however, if you wait until the Spring then everyone wants a yacht for the summer and your choice and the price will be the sellers favour.

You asked how deep should bilge keels be for ocean crossings, well it doesn't matter, the important bit is did the yacht designer do his homework and produce a safe boat. Our twin keels have a 4 foot draft btw and a twin keel Westerly Centaur did UK to the Azores and back recently.

Pete

[David_Old_Jersey]

tha link Boatman provided was to a Westerly 22 - not a Pageant. very different boats. less room, no standing headroom and not such a good sailboat. upside is that a lot cheaper, came with either bermudan rig or gunter (would fit with easy mast dropping at price of sailing ability) and a mix of inboards and outboards.....also built like a brick outhouse a great gunkholer and the odd trip to Europe in good weather, but not what you would want to be on mid atlantic in a blow - although i am sure spmeone has I'd also think twice on living aboard as well in winter. 2? (one female?? - don't marry her, nor name her on your life insurance ).

Westerly Pageant archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Westerly 22 - NOT FOR SALE, details for information only


This guy is / was living on a 20 footer in the UK and about your age.

About Kudu » OnKudu

Plenty of history / threads over on YBW.com. Something to bear in mind is that with a small boat easy to over customise and over capitalise - Nathan was trying to sell for a long time, blog suggests he has given up on the sell idea. I guess couldn't accept that only worth £500.........

Not sure what your budget is, but if in the low 1,000's I would stick on land. at least until spring. or try living in a tent next week to see what doing badly / cheaply feels like

[limejucer]

Work out how much wood you need to heat the boat? No serious you need dry wood to get heat in any decent amount. and even at 2 Cubic foot a day a months worth is 60 cubic feet or 3*3*6 with no air space. that is the fore peak gone. look at diesel or parrafin unless you have unlimited free dry wood.

[boatman61]

I second the go and look at them.. they were good seawothy boats that I suggested and folks have lived on them but you'd get to see how spartan it can be.. the Virgo was the best and I lived on her for 18mths full time.. part time with one other.. with two... storage of clothes etc became a problem... but great solo.
If your pkanning for two I'd up the size to at least 28ft.... a Westerly Centaur would be better.. loads of good storage under the bunks and a long ranger compared to the Virgo... but now your in the 7K - 9K range
Draught is 0.90m

[Thames]

For those of you joining the thread, I made a general conclusion earlier, click http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post570540 I'm still checking back though as you've so many valuable comments, and because I can't stop thinking about my future boat so I'll ask the odd question as they bother me. Please let me know if this becomes annoying! I think the discussion is still relevant to the title and will be useful to others.

[Thames]

So old Westerly, Hurley etc is it easy to insulate these boats? And is GRP as easy to modify as wood (cold-molded)?

What about fitting a shower? Those of you who've spent weeks aboard a small cruiser, do you just wash, or go ashore or just jump in the sea? In the winter?