Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-03-2016, 10:25   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
seasick's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bend, OR
Boat: Brewer designed Pacific 43 in fiberglass. Center cockpit set up for long-distance single handing.
Posts: 430
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

If you're happy with your Oday I recommend stepping up to the Oday 25. It has internal ballast with a light centerboard on a rope lanyard. These sail well but you might want a vehicle with heaps of braking power and trailer brakes. Something like an F250. We loved ours on the lakes of Central Oregon. This 25' is strongly build and very seaworthy and very close to standing headroom. Best of all they won't break the bank.
__________________

__________________
seasick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:33   #17
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,149
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

If you are just asking about swing keels, then the paceship 29 is pretty good. I owned one, and enjoyed it. We have thin water here (thousand islands, east end of Lake Ontario) and the shallow draft was awesome. However, I doubt it would trailer well.

The older Pearson 35 (197x) is another swing keel boat with shallow draft and good reviews.
__________________

__________________
hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:34   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Seaward 26RK is a top of the line trailerable that I have a lot respect for but I'd say budget wise the Catalina 25 is a good one too.
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 11:04   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Nonsuch U30
Posts: 78
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

I would have to vote for the Hunter 260, or Hunter 26(older model) water ballast. I have seen them in the Bahamas with FL numbers.
__________________
Sdwcheney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 13:42   #20
Registered User
 
Scout 30's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 2,355
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Can you tell us what you have for a tow vehicle & it's rated towing weight? The boats being recommended are pretty big & you'll need a big vehicle to pull them. Most displacement figures are dry weights so you also need to add the weight of your provisions, fuel & water plus the weight of the trailer. Rigging the boat can also take quite awhile so it's not something you'd want to do for a day sail.
__________________
Scout 30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 14:17   #21
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Size isn't really a factor in terms of how big you can go & still have a swing keel, until you get up to say, the 70' range.
As, for example, these guys make some Sweet, shoal draft boats which ain't small. This one's a bit over 40', but they make'em bigger. http://www.rm-yachts.com/rm-1270

Here's a different style of shoal draft, a Sharpie
Hogfish Maximus - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sai...pie-34759.html
Loose Moose Sailboat http://www.bing.com/search?q=loose+m...15450884EE688D
Loose Moose II Sailboat http://www.bing.com/search?q=loose%2...375C477212B247

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog2 View Post
Hi Polux,

Thank you for that recommendation. The one limitation I have is that my mooring and the whole marina is limited to 28' length. And you are correct, that I did not provide enough information. I am definite looking for a used boat. Perhaps the safe/stable aspect is more of an issue with smaller boats. There were some boats that I looked at when I purchased my first boat, that just seemed much more tippy than others. Just stepping on the boat caused a much bigger shift from side to side on some boats we looked at.
On this point, you're confusing Initial Stability (what you feel when you first step onto a boat), with Ultimate Stability.

Also, at a certain angle of heel, pretty much every boat hardens up (resists further heeling) a Lot. - Typically somewhere prior to 30 degrees of heel. And the ways to find this out are to;
- Look at her engineering & performance diagrams/stability graph & calc's, - Or, more practically, take her out for a test sail.
- But you can also perform an ad hoc Inclining Moment Test at the dock. Meaning, seeing how much force it takes to heel over to various angles. The easiest ways being; by stacking folks on her gunwales, or by attaching a halyard to a stout fixed object, & cranking away on it's winch.

BTW, there are some fairly easy ways to quantify these tests as well. Plus, of course, the subjective, by feel, method.

Weight, balast, and beam each had an impact.
They all do, as does the shape of the hull. And to clear up one fallacy of thinking in this thread. Wide beam can contribute to Initial Stability, but isn't the final factor in Ultimate, or Usable Stability.
Maybe I am wrong, but I expect boats used for racing tend to give up some stability for speed.
This depends upon the design, & to what, if any racing rule she was built. And some designs/designers of racing boats don't much give a crap about "rules", & thus design in as much stability as is practically possible.

Joel pointed out however, that a wide beam in a longer boat might create challenges in trailering, so that is an interesting consideration I need to look into.

Thanks again,
On trailering & width, check the rules & reg's for where you'll be towing. As in a good number of states, you can tow things up to 10' wide, simply by hanging a Wide Load sign on it's rear.
And trailers for Catalina 30's aren't even that tough to source.

Also, regarding swing keels. Keep in mind that there are plenty of large boats with fixed keels, that draw only 4'-5' (some even less). And by large, I mean upwards of 40'. The same holds true for the size of boats which are easy to legally trailer.

Some 40'ers have been purpose designed to fit inside of a Cargo Container for shipping. So, yeah, narrow AND shoal draft. http://containeryachts.com/

PS: Some shoal draft boats, additionally use water ballast, in order to boost their stability.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 17:10   #22
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog2 View Post
Hi,
First time posting here. I couldn't find much on this topic in the archives. I have a 19' O'day (not the Rhodes type) Which I chose as my first boat because of its stability and safety (7'9" beam). I have a mooring in a harbor that limits boat size to 28'. I would like to be able to continue to trailer my boat in and out of the harbor beginning and end of seasons and if i want to put in somewhere else. What is inspiring this move is that we just completed ASA 101, 103 and 104 in the Caribbean.

I am wondering how large a boat is realistic to have that has a swing keel, and if there are particular brands that i should be looking for a reasonably stable/safe boat. Currently we don't go very far and always return to our mooring at end of the day, but we want to be able to actually travel to other harbors like Boston, Nantucket, and others. (Cape Cod area).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Our swing CB takes our draft from 6'-8" to 13 feet. We are 58 feet. The hoist is 24 VDC & cable operated. Our original was damaged so we commissioned a new one.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P5220004.JPG
Views:	76
Size:	192.8 KB
ID:	120193   Click image for larger version

Name:	P6230018.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	410.2 KB
ID:	120194  

__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 19:33   #23
Marine Service Provider
 
Azul's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Beaufort, NC
Boat: 1968 Cal 34, 1984 Catalina 22, 1987 Sanibel 18, 1968 Tanzer 16, 1989 BW Outrage 19, BW SS 15
Posts: 525
Images: 2
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Since you want to trailer your boat, strongly consider how much extra work and weight you want to deal with. A 19 foot boat is easy for one person to step the mast and almost any vehicle can pull it. My Sanibel 18 is like that. It is a lot more work to put up the mast on a Catalina 22, and it is at the limits of what my SUV will pull (3500# with trailer.) Overall, it is about twice as much work as the smaller boat. There are many threads on the Catalina forums comparing a 22 to a 25. A Catalina 25 with a trailer is about 6000#, more of a two person job to put in the water and takes about an hour to launch, about twice as long as a C22.

I'm probably going to put my C22 on a mooring or in storage with the mast up when the weather gets better and use the Sanibel 18 for trailering to new venues.

Having a swing keel does make it much easier to launch the boat, pull the boat behind a vehicle (less windage) and it is nice to be able to beach the boat.

No way would I want to trailer a 25 foot sailboat for a trip shorter than a week. Too dang much work.
__________________
Azul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 17:16   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Vermont
Boat: O'Day 19 (not Rhodes model)
Posts: 33
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and input. I can see that trailering could be a problem with too big a boat from the comments. However, the time to set up the boat is not a problem as we would generally just set it up for a whole season (May to October). In addition, we have no significant hills and only would trailer for 5 miles to our mooring, meaning we could exceed the recommended weight, though we do have one vehicle that is good for 5500 lbs.

There were many pieces of the puzzle I had not considered, so again thank you everyone.

Steve (Snowdog2)
__________________
Snowdog2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 18:19   #25
Registered User
 
Scout 30's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 2,355
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

If you're just using the trailer for storage you might be able to rent a tow vehicle. My snow bird neighbor pays a guy from the local marina to pull his 28' cabin cruiser to the storage lot for the summer.
__________________
Scout 30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 20:31   #26
Registered User
 
chris mac's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: edmonton alberta
Boat: 1980 san juan 7.7
Posts: 428
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Just remember the 5 miles to and from are easy. The ramp is not. That is not a good place to find out you are under powered.
__________________
chris mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2016, 08:51   #27
Registered User
 
OS2Dude's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 144
Images: 5
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

How are you defining a 'Swing Keel'?

Center Boards pivot, but have little weight to them. The ones I've seen lift into a shoal keel where the ballast is and can be raised by hand.

Swing Keels also pivot, and have the weight in them which helps the stability when it is lowered. From what I've been told it usually requires a motor or winch to raise.

Both kinds react differently when up, partially deployed and fully deployed.

A Lifting keel (Dagger Board) rises vertically. Seaward (and others) make a series of boats with a lifting keel that can allow the boat to go into some very shoal water. (Last look their largest was a trailerable 42' boat. Owner raisable deck mounted mast. Wide Load though.)

My O'Day 23 had a centerboard/keel and was easily trailered. It was a bit small. (4' 6" headroom when hatches closed)
__________________
OS2Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2016, 09:37   #28
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

FWIW, I've had, & or been on 35'ers, where the mast could be stepped & raised via 1.5 guys (sans crane) in 1/2 hour.


And regarding the launch ramp thing, & vehichle engine output. Much of the time it's not that the vehicle runs out of grunt. But that the tires run out of grip. Especially if there'a algee/slime on the ramp. So that many times, the best solution is a 2nd vehichle connected to the one on the ramp, which is up on flatter, dry ground.


So long as there are good, clear comms between the drivers, as well as a knowledgable 3rd party, who can see everything at once. Then it's a pretty low stress event.
--> Assuming, that is, that both vehicles have the appropriate tow points, & you have a Serious towing strap/line.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2016, 15:30   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Vermont
Boat: O'Day 19 (not Rhodes model)
Posts: 33
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

OS2 Dude,

I am only beginning to understand the differences between swing keels. I don't understand the pros and cons of a water ballast for example. I was thinking in terms of a shoal keel, with a swing keel that probably would not have a lot of balast, but I have a lot to learn in this regard. Fortunately I am not in a hurry and am open to learning what I need. Using a winch to raise the centerboard would not be a problem necessarily. Currently, with my O'Day 19, I just pull a rope.

Thanks
__________________
Snowdog2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2016, 20:14   #30
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: How big a boat for swing keels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS2Dude View Post
...

Swing Keels also pivot, and have the weight in them which helps the stability when it is lowered. From what I've been told it usually requires a motor or winch to raise.
...
Some small boats like the Seascape 27 use a manual hydraulic pump to raise the swing keel.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boats over 30 feet with Swing Keels, Lift Keels, or Centerboards lays300 Monohull Sailboats 15 10-06-2013 12:01
Fin Keels - Skeg Hung Rudders - Full Keels bdurham Monohull Sailboats 149 26-07-2011 18:06
Big Tidal Swing - Docking Suggestions? off-the-grid Anchoring & Mooring 8 03-06-2009 08:24
Swing boards or keels fastcat435 Multihull Sailboats 25 07-08-2008 08:41



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.