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Old 21-11-2015, 20:55   #31
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

From an old former boat dealer. Don't buy a boat that needs ANY thing more than a good wash job. There are plenty of good and "cheap" older boats available- the only catch- is many of the best deals are not advertised. You have to "walk the docks', talk to other sailors/boaters, tell everyone you are looking.
In older boats under 27', outboards are less expensive to maintain and replace than inboards. I wouldn't turn down a boat because it had an inboard, but it had better be tested and proven functional, including running it underway for at least a half an hour at cruise speed. Of course, I would expect that of an outboard also.
Surveys on boats this size and age don't mean much unless it is fully tested under power and sail, so getting an experienced sailor friend to help you check out boats is probably a better path and a lot more fun.
Enjoy and learn!
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Old 21-11-2015, 21:55   #32
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

I am not as negative on the Irwin. It is a very pretty little boat! It looks to be well-cared-for and maintained. I probably wouldn't choose it for ocean cruising, but for Walla Walla and the Columbia, I think it is fine. Are you planning on going all the way down to Portland with it? I would tell the owners they need to include an installed and running Yanmar in the sale. (and they need to be sure the prop shaft is set right too.) You'll need it. I used to work summers in Lewiston Idaho and as I recall the conditions were either dead calm or a howling gale. Usually dead calm. Now for the anchoring part, a 25 foot boat won't need a really big anchor. I see it has a Bruce on there, that's good, but I don't see how much chain is on there. You won't need too much really, maybe 20 feet. It all should be light enough to be within your exercise regimen I bet.

BUT, I think Ann's advice is the best. Get rid of the powerboat and take care of yourself first. It may be depressing to think that delaying the dream will deny you the dream, but I don't think so. If the Irwin gets sold before you can get it, don't worry, other good deals on good boats will come along. There are probably a few in Lewiston/Clarkston area! But if that boat really calls to you, and you have the money and you are sure you feel up to it, then I say go for it.

edit: oops, I went back an read some posts I missed and I think the advice about the diesel is valid. If it is in good running shape then fine, but if you have any doubt about it, and/or they don't want to get it back in the boat, just let it go. I have an outboard on mine but a good little diesel is more economical and safer, and chances are you'll be doing quite a bit of motoring.
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Old 22-11-2015, 01:27   #33
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Falcon, again, FWIW, been living on board 24x7 for 6 plus years. As a foreigner who has never sailed in the US nor in the PNW I'm somewhat reluctant to push my personal 2 cents worth. But, the water is here on the east coast of OZ, the Tasman Sea, surely must be as unforgiving as that anywhere almost. Here we also have rivers which regularly empty into the ocean at 4 knots and in April last we had nearly 70 knots for three days and I was not in a marina but on the hook. Had I not had a 25lb Manson Supreme hanging off my 250 feet of 5/16 chain (100 ft of 16 plait snubber in reserve) things would have been, to put it mildly, perilous. I was anchored in good sand in 35 ft of water and typically had 50 kts and 12 ft waves. Seriously rough.
IMHO...ALL vessels need plenty of chain of the appropriate size and plenty of good snobbing ability.
At only 25x9 ft and a mere 3 tons laden possibly my ground tackle is overkill however, FWIW, my 2.75m Zodiac Rib has at least 20ft of 5/15, 30 feet of 1/2" rode at the end of which is a 7 lb Fortress.
Bruce anchors here on the OZ east coast seem to have pretty much disappeared !! (read what you will).
Is it a peculiarity to OZ that tow trucks seem to take forever to arrive?
Brother, if a good pick and at least 100' of chain isn't appropriate for, eg, an Irwin, then please, someone, teach me some new tricks. Gales & strong flowing tides are going to be part of your life in the future and I pray to God you have 'worlds best surgery' for your op and a fantastic life on the water. On the hook for 2300 days and have never dragged, offer in 30 + knots and min 30 ft of hard water. Cheers and go safely. Brian.
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Old 22-11-2015, 02:12   #34
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Quick break of thread....Hummingway, a moderator emeritus, has just sent me a welcoming letter but today is my first day and I don't know how to reply. Please would someone be so kind as to thank "Hummingway" for me? Many thanks from rainy Sydney.
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Old 22-11-2015, 03:02   #35
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Golden Falcon,

I've read through what you have posted since my first post, and I think it might be helpful to mention the bits that are physically difficult. Definitely, upping anchor can be a problem, because once you get it hove up close, the next big pull will turn you loose, and then you have to quickly get back to the helm, never mind the anchor in the water, as yt, and get the boat going in a safe direction. Then you have to go forward and retrieve the anchor.

Before I go any further, I have two things to say to you: first, thank you for your service; second, I really do get it that you are young and other than your lungs, in good nick. So i'll base this on what might make someone breathless. We just covered getting the anchor up.

You might find that even getting the mains'l up would jeopardize your breath. Not knowing how badly impaired you are, it's hard to say what would be best. Sometimes sheeting in can make me breathless. Maybe not you. It really depends on your ability to receive oxygen.

This is conservative advice: get a power boat, it will be easier on your body.

This is Ann's advice: if your heart is telling you to try sail, then do it, for the activity you pursue that you love will help you, for what gives you joy, helps your healing.


If your heart is not only filled with boat lust--the wee Irwin is not a great boat--but she is what you want..... WTF! You're free, and over 21, you get to choose what you want, in the face of what internet feedback you get. It will be a learning experience.

Ann

And, the very best of good luck to you, sir!
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Old 22-11-2015, 06:53   #36
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

As nice as the idea of sailing ("Adventures in Paradise") is, in your situation a 30 -40 single engine (Diesel) powerboat (displacement) is perhaps a lot more practical and will allow you to experience a good deal of the "dream". A smallish, light displacement sailboat is pretty demanding physically.
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Old 22-11-2015, 07:48   #37
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldFalcon View Post
...

I also need to learn to sail.

....
Since you need to learn to sail, why don't you start taking sailing classes. That will tell you if you can physically handle sailing. This will get you on the water, not take much money, nor lock you into a boat that you might not be able to handle or want after the surgery.

The following book was recommended on the MorgransCloud website and the authors comments in the discussion about their book impressed me so I bought the book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...etailpage_o00_

I am not finished with the book but what I have read so far is very good.

Later,
Dan
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Old 22-11-2015, 09:27   #38
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Gold falcon,

Thank you for service. I am a pulmonary and critical care physician and a sailor. I routinely care for emphysema patients, and lung transplant patients. Here is my opinion on both what can make u breathless and your sailboat choice.

Firstly, breathlessness. Weighing anchor, raising sails, tacking, gybing, moving about the boat can all make you breathless, but..... There are ways to mitigate this. For example, electric anchor windlass, electric winch for raising the main and/or trimming jib sheets. Google winch bit and you'll see that you can use a right angle drill and make any winch electric. Those are the boat factors you can adjust.

As for moving around the boat, you can learn to do that do that so it is not as energy costly to you in pulmonary rehab. If u have not been to pulmonary rehab, I highly recommend it. You will learn to use your body as efficiently as possible.

Consider changing your diet to higher protein and higher fat and reduced the carbohydrate content. Carbohydrates will cause you to overproduce carbon dioxide which will make you have to breathe harder (simplified explanation for purpose of this thread). By doing these two things, you will be able to do more on the boat.

Boat choice: A smaller more tender boat will cause you to expend more energy, and thus breathe harder simply by the virtue of using muscles to compensate for heeling, balance, etc. Even not moving around will use much energy. A heavier, less tender boat will be easier for you. By one that is ready to go, not one that needs work. It will be cheaper in the long run, and you will be less frustrated.

Philosophically, buy a boat you love even before transplant. Even if you just hang out on her and go nowhere the peace and tranquility is worth it. Also, having a sailboat will give you something to look forward to when you are going through the transplant process.

Also, if you want to learn to sail, on the east coast is an organization that helps people with disabilities who want to sail. Google CRAB sailing, Annapolis, MD. You will see them. If you find yourself on the east coast, send me an email. I'll take you sailing on my boat. I wish you the best.

Ben


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Old 22-11-2015, 12:28   #39
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Aloha and Welcome aboard!
Thanks for your service. I'm retired Navy and an old guy now. Just since joining this forum about 9 years ago I've gone through colon cancer surgery, back injuries, breaking a foot and now an infected sore ankle that doesn't want to heal. That's in addition to all the skin cancer treatments and surgery.
My experience after sailing from the year '72 aboard sailing vessels vs cruising on ships and using power boats since '63 is that sailing is much more demanding. Yes, you can mitigate much of it through power winches and furlers and windlasses but still moving about while tacking and jibing and keeping a course can wear you out.
I would take Ann's advice and the doctor's recommendation and combine the two. You are not going to find any of the powered items on a small Irwin so don't go that route until your health will support it.
Good luck in whatever choice you make.
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Old 22-11-2015, 12:37   #40
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Good luck to you and I second what Ann wrote. Project one is to get yourself to a stable health state. Then assess what sort of boating you can take on.

I would consider a partnership or some sort of fractional use / share arrangement. I suspect there are a lot of older sailors who would consider a partner because their boats are not being used as they once were... that they could use physical and financial help to hold on to the boat. So partnership for these boat owners allows them to hold on to their boat and for someone like you to get on one a heck of a lot easier. And of course you get someone to teach you... basics at least.
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Old 22-11-2015, 18:16   #41
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Okay -

1) Are you healthy enough for sailing? It is physically challenging, even with the best of rigging, and older heavier more decrepit rigging are not the "best".
2) Are you going to be able to deal with the rigors of a boat that is already in bad shape, and probably getting worse as fast as you can fix it?
3) Mechanic shops in the U.S. earn charge WAY more than $20/hr. On top of that, they charge "shop fees" to cover their overhead costs. A "new engine", at $500, is probably just a block, not a complete running engine with all the necessary operating bits on it, and it has to be installed, so those numbers are just unrealistic.
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Old 22-11-2015, 18:36   #42
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldFalcon View Post
I'll make this as short as possible, but it is still gonna be a long post. Sorry. I'm looking for advice. I am an unhappy power-boater who really wanted to be a sailor. Problem is, I have severe emphysema (severe enough that I'll be on the lung transplant list come January) so when I was buying a boat a few years back all of my friends advised me that the physical demands of sailing would be too great, so I bought a 26' Bayliner (I know) to kick around with here (far, far up the Columbia River).

I liked the Bayliner (believe it or not) and lived aboard her for months but she isn't the boat to do what I want to do --go far and wide without spending thousands on fuel. To do that I need a sailboat.

I also need to learn to sail.

Here's my conundrum: The Bayliner's engine is shot. I have a rebuilt engine sitting behind her on the hard, but doing the work myself has proven a bit more than I can handle physically (climbing up and down the trailered boat wears me out pretty fast). Cost to repair is 6K (shop won't use my rebuilt engine, so I have to shell out for a new one). I'm having a hard time justifying the expense to fix a boat that --while OK-- isn't really what I want or need.

BUUUT, just down the road a bit is a '77 Irwin (I know) 25' that is a cosmetically beautiful little sailboat that I have been admiring for a year. It was for sale for $7,500 last year but apparently had some valve problems with the little 8HP Yanmar Diesel so they pulled it and replaced the valves, according to the owner. The price is now $4,500.

I know that Irwin's have a reputation for less than stellar build quality, but my gut feeling is that since I would primarily be using her to learn to sail on pretty mild stretches of river, things like leaky ports and less than ideal glasswork might not be as big a problem for me.

But then there is that engine. I'm terrified of having another boat on the hard with an engine behind it. I guarantee you I'm gonna need that engine just to get it from his marina to mine because, ya know, not a sailor. I'm assuming the cost to drop the diesel back in would be around $3,000, since that's how much the price dropped. But I just don't know if another partially-functioning boat is worth the hassle, even at that price point.

I could also go with another powerboat, but after my lung transplant (probably next year, maybe the year after) my best friend and I are planning on moving over to Puget Sound to live and sail, so I'd kinda like to know how to do it before I get there. Besides, in my heart, I've always wanted a sailboat.

I could up my budget and go larger on a sailboat, but the Irwin is close and small and seems a good starter boat for the Columbia, and I'm going to be going big on a sailboat in three years anyway, so I'd rather start small now and work up.

So:
1) Would the physical demands of a 25' sailboat on the Columbia be too much for a guy who has to do everything slow? I can operate my Bayliner single-handed, I just have to start moving and doing a lot earlier than most people. Retrieving the anchor is the hardest part. I should also point out that, especially for the transplant, strenuous strength-training of upper body and core is encouraged (as well as cardio).

2) Is the Irwin a decent choice (all other things being equal) for the Columbia between Portland and the Tri-Cities? The owner has been sailing it here for 14 years, but that could mean nothing at all.

3) Should the engine-out status of the Irwin be a deal breaker?

Also, the Bayliner is currently parked in my ex-wife's driveway, so speedy resolution is starting to be an issue

Here is the Irwin in question:
https://kpr.craigslist.org/boa/5284779314.html

As a former Irwin owner, I can tell you that they, in reasonable condition, are capable and fun. the two things they don't do well is go fast and sail close to the wind. i would not hessitate to go to sea as long as the boat is in good condition. when we sailed my 37 to Florida we were often in 10-15' seas. it was not overly wet in the cockpit and handled the seas well!
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Old 22-11-2015, 18:45   #43
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Welcome gold falcon, not to get involved with all the previous threads, but being born and raised in the suburbs of detroit, $3000 does seem a little rich(unless that includes the prices of the engine) As for the Irwin, take the time to look. Out of the forums (e-bay, Craigs list, Sailboat listings, CF, etc.) you can find more boats than you can shake a stick at!, BUT Ann is right please take care of yourself first.
Again best of luck with sailing.

joel
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Old 22-11-2015, 19:14   #44
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Keeping in mind again where you are sailing, (the biggest waves you are likely to see is a wake from a water skier) and your desire to learn, a boat like the Irwin is fine, or you might go smaller. Everything gets easier as you go smaller. And you can still cruise comfortably and safely along the river camping out. You just might not have standing (or stooping) headroom. No shower either! You never know what might be available around there. My old Columbia 24 is now up on Flathead Lake! That is a good sturdy boat and has 5'-9" headroom. If you get a boat with an outboard make sure it has electric start and a really easy way to hoist it. Also get the halyards run back to winches on the cabin top so you don't have to be gong forward for that. Roller furling headsail is a really good idea for you too. (I don't think the Irwin had it, expensive to add on.) I think the wheel steering is nice for you in that you don't have to jump across the cockpit, over the tiller, when tacking.
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Old 22-11-2015, 21:23   #45
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Re: Help Out a Disabled, Landlubbing Old Paratrooper

Maybe there is a copd sailing school in your area, not just Annapolis.

Some form of sailing school would be at least a start on what you want eventually to do, if your body lets you. You would not only learn about sailing, but also about the boats, which would then form an experiential basis on which to draw, when/if you are able to attempt longer trips. That's a heck of a bar to get out of, the Columbia R. bar. Notorious, and, in a small sailboat, a lot of work.

Everything you do on a sailboat will take oxygen, the muscles you use to keep yourself balanced while sailing, the ones you use to raise and lower sails, tack, anchoring, everything, all the time will be some exertion. And you cannot count on being able to rest when your body needs it; and you could get in serious trouble, if, for instance, you fluff a tack and are having to rest rather than do it again and make it.

This is one to look at without rose colored glasses on, and a sailing class would inform you how much rest you need in that environment.

Good luck with it, Golden Falcon; I sure hope it works out for you.

Ann
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