Help me to understand Swingkeels

[jmczzz]

Currently own and sail a Catalina 22 and a Catalina 25 both swing keels. They incorporate a locking bolt that screws thru a stainless strap on the port side of the keel head's rotation space from under the forward port settee. These are friction pins that do not go thru the keel but just apply pressure to the side of the keel head to stop or slow any unintentional movement. I and most sailors do not use these "locks" except in times of heavy weather / sea conditions. However with a storm jib and a double reefed main my C22 has proven steady and safe without the keel lock bolt. And several times a lose / unlocked bolt has kept my boats from damage to the keel when encountering an underwater obstruction. In my C22 the lock bolt has been eliminated and the hole glassed over by the previous owner because it was a source of leaks. The C25 does have the working mechanism. There are several upgrades available from Catalina Direct for eliminating the side ways play or slack referenced here as noisy. These upgrades are effective. A prudent skipper will not have problems with "keel slamming the hull or housing" Even without using the lock. I do not know of any occurrence of this although have heard scuttlebutt stories. I sail keel down but motor keel up. The downside is regular yearly inspection and maintenance is required to avoid problems. I have replaced keel wench lift cables several times when kinks or "fish hooks" develop.The cable attach point at the keel and the rotation pin are also inspection maintenance points. The pin will wear especially if the keel is not properly centered with the above mentioned upgrades. Both keels are cast iron, encapsulated in thickened epoxy. This process is needed on salt water boats every 5 to 10 years in normal use. The hole thru the keel where the hinge pin passes sometimes requires boring out and fitted with a Stainless sleeve in order to keep it secure and true fort and aft. I have in the past sailed / owned 4 fixed keel boats from 40 to 23 ft. I believe for my use (fresh water and coastal cursing in the Northern gulf coast and inland waters these boats are ideal and consider the keel group maintenance to be worth the thin water capabilities. I have gone up rivers and industrial canals on several occasions to ride out Hurricanes. And the ability to put these boats on a trailer and take them home for maintenance is valuable.
We plan a trip up the Canadian canals to The St Lawrence and Montreal this summer in our C25.
I think these are great boats for my purposes.
Good sailing , James

[Ungvar]

Excellent relation of personal experience James. Particularly useful was how you describe your use and maintenance of the keel. The thin water capabilities of these boats is a high priority for me because much of my cruising area consists of sheltered, shallow man made canals.

I don't think the keel maintenance would be over cumbersome for me, as the boat would be in my garage 6 months a year, I certainly have plenty of time for routine maintenance.

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[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I think you need to think a little harder about your priorities. There is a world of difference between a pocket cruiser like the Grampian 26 and many of the weekenders you are looking at. If you go the swing keel/centerboard route be aware that the centerboard trunk is a very vulnerable point. Leaks are almost impossible to stop and any repairs tend to be difficult. Sailing any of these boats in stiff winds is possible but requires real expertise. Only you can judge if you have the necessary knowledge. Good fortune and fair winds whatever you decide.

Okay, I'll take the bait. I asked for advice on assessing and potential problem areas on the keel assembly of a small, affordable family pocket cruiser for sailing primarily on sheltered waters and secondarily on inland waters.

I state that I am technically unfamiliar with swing keels but self assess myself as a reasonably capable sailor. I am downsizing from a considerably larger vessel to save myself stress, money and time.

Which priority should I think harder about?

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[Ungvar]

Thanks Uncivilized, I just need help getting through my self survey on Saturday, after that I think I should be able to handle upgrades and repairs.

I will PM you if I run into any real problems.

I agree with your safety perspective on this type of vessel on the lakes, like I'm sure most sailors did, I learned to sail on Albacores, CL 16's, Lazers etc on relatively open water. It's mostly a matter of keeping the bottom wet, top dry, checking the weather and not doing anything too dumb

The thing is, I'm not even on the lakes most of the time, just a big river.

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[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

Thanks again for the valuable information to all.

In terms of terminology, I am gathering the pendant is the term for the steel cable that raises and lowers the keel?

More questions on the keel lock. This boat is being sold by the former owners daughter, and the daughter is not familiar with the boat or her equipment.

How am I going to recognise the keel lock?

Will it be a pin that passes through the trunk and keel when it is in the down position?

Does any one have a pic of a keel locking mechanism?

Edit: I found some pics on Google images, I see there are different types, but a pin is most likely.

There is some food for thought here, the thought of an 1100 lb keel free dropping on a 2200 lb boat doesn't sound pleasant. Especially if it decides to rip the bottom out of the boat, not good right side up, very not good if you're upside down.

It sounds like the risk can be mitigated through good maintenance and prudent seamanship though, which is good.

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Different boats have different systems. On the RL24, I had a bolt that went through the trunk that prevented the keel folding aft. Others had a line on the leading edge that pulled kept constant tension on the front of the keel preventing it going aft.
The image below is a locking bolt system you could consider. . http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/kk/kk-10877manual2.gif

Similarly, if you look at that arrow pointing to the bolt hole, that arrow could be stainless rope giving you a bolt-less system.

Whether or not the keel has a lock is something you could ask the current owner. If you were to get to the local yacht club and talk to a few TY/TS owners I am sure they would be happy to show you the systems they use.

Yes the risk can be mitigated somewhat with good seamanship. But an unforseen storm/gale can also ace that .

[Ungvar]

Thanks Oz, I just had a friend/local skipper over for dinner that I would very much like to cruise with.

He warned me that if I were to cruise with them, a 5' keel down draft would be absolutely unacceptable to get up some of the rapids on the Ottawa river, particularly around Petawawa (for people who know the Ottawa area).

My friend sails with a full keel Alberg 22 and still occasionally touches bottom on his run up the river.

I could make it up (or down) the river with my keel up just fine, but he says I could be hours at a time sailing in less than 4 feet of water.

I assume a CS 22 can sail keel up in these very protected waters, but I also assume these boats can't handle regular bottom touches on granite like an Alberg.

When I am on open water I would obviously sail keel down and locked but in the upper Ottawa, it seems I would need to be keel up or at least not locked down.

My impression is, a swinger would work in this area, but locals prefer a full keel approach.

I drive a Hyundai, so the biggest full keel vessel I can trailer is a Halman or Nordica 20 (that I know of). Pretty small boats.

Complicated boat buying, I want a boat that I can sleep on in some comfort, sails well, can handle big lakes, can handle Canadian shield rivers and tow behind a Hyundai, for less than $5k.

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[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by secrabtree

Whew! That's a lot for a used Catalina 22. As I remember, I paid leass than half that for my C22 with trailer. But that was in 1973.

Dude, I asked Catalina for pricing on a new Catalina 22 with swing keel, head, and basic galley, thinking I could make monthly payments or something. They quoted me $36 000 CDN.

For that kind of money, it better come with vertical take off and landing capability.



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[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

Thanks Oz, I just had a friend/local skipper over for dinner that I would very much like to cruise with.

He warned me that if I were to cruise with them, a 5' keel down draft would be absolutely unacceptable to get up some of the rapids on the Ottawa river, particularly around Petawawa (for people who know the Ottawa area).

My friend sails with a full keel Alberg 22 and still occasionally touches bottom on his run up the river.

I could make it up (or down) the river with my keel up just fine, but he says I could be hours at a time sailing in less than 4 feet of water.

I assume a CS 22 can sail keel up in these very protected waters, but I also assume these boats can't handle regular bottom touches on granite like an Alberg.

When I am on open water I would obviously sail keel down and locked but in the upper Ottawa, it seems I would need to be keel up or at least not locked down.

My impression is, a swinger would work in this area, but locals prefer a full keel approach.

I drive a Hyundai, so the biggest full keel vessel I can trailer is a Halman or Nordica 20 (that I know of). Pretty small boats.

Complicated boat buying, I want a boat that I can sleep on in some comfort, sails well, can handle big lakes, can handle Canadian shield rivers and tow behind a Hyundai, for less than $5k.

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Hmm, Trailer Yachts are not something one would regularly see going over rapids. That said, assuming everyone had life jackets on, it would actually be safer to release the keel lock in case of groundings. (in other words let the keep pop up as needed or have it up higher). IN that scenario, you arent far from a shore line and if the worst happened, you could swim across the stream.

Given the above, I would also suggest you look for a boat with a swing rudder not a drop rudder.

The keel lock would be better used in larger bodies of water like the lakes etc. .

[Ungvar]

Ya, that's basically what my friend said. If you're powering up the rapids and your boat doesn't have enough power to make it, you get washed back down, out of shape, maybe sideways.

He says only a strong boat like an Alberg can handle washing down the river side ways, can handle the abuse.

But I'm thinking, if an Alberg can fight the current, then a lighter boat should be able to handle the currents better. Especially with keel retracted.



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[ozskipper]

When navigating small rivers, the wind tends to twist and bend somewhat with the rivers shape- especially in valleys. That said, if you were going upstream and the wind was against you, expect to use the motor not the sails. Naturally, if the wind is from behind, its much easier. In a perfect scenario, having wind behind you when going up stream would be perfect.

[Ungvar]

These upriver jaunts, are definitely a motoring situation.

Somebody might be able to sail up a notch, but it isn't me or my freinds.

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[jmczzz]

[QUOTE=Ungvar;2096845]Dude, I asked Catalina for pricing on a new Catalina 22 with swing keel, head, and basic galley, thinking I could make monthly payments or something. They quoted me $36 000 CDN.

used market is much here than that. with many thousand C 22 s & C 25 s sold over the years there are many on the market.
check this link for example. CatalinaOwners.com classified ads, sailboats for sale

James,

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW:

First, I echo secrabtree's advice, and can attest to its veracity, for I was a competitor in my Cat-22 all those years ago in SF Bay! We did indeed not just sail in 20-25 kts routinely, we raced, and raced hard (if not very skillfully at times). This resulted, in our case, of loosing the mast a couple of times, due to spreader failure (the design of the spreaders and their bases was later changed... ours was hull #61). But remember, this was with 4 bodies sitting out on the rail and driving to windward in a 4+ foot sea... big shock loads on the spar and rig.

Do remember that there were more than 10,000 of these boats built, mostly with swing keels. I have not heard of any cases where the keel knocked the bottom of the boat out or other such drastic damage. I dunno if Sam has heard of such... he was involved in th class longer than I was.

At any rate, for the usage imagined by the OP, worries about swing keel disasters in a Cat 22 are low on the priority list.

Jim

Always love your stories Jim ...

I can now picture 4 large gents sitting on a Cat-22 rail in a breeze!

Originally Posted by Ungvar

Northcoastjoe, I would love to see pics of your keel maintenance. Even though there aren't many Macs around these parts, I am sure many of the same lessons will apply.

I've got a bunch of pics of the keel drop and trunk/pivot refit from the Chrysler... When I get time I'll post...

Originally Posted by Ungvar

Complicated boat buying, I want a boat that I can sleep on in some comfort, sails well, can handle big lakes, can handle Canadian shield rivers and tow behind a Hyundai, for less than $5k.

Originally Posted by Ungvar

Ya, that's basically what my friend said. If you're powering up the rapids and your boat doesn't have enough power to make it, you get washed back down, out of shape, maybe sideways.

He says only a strong boat like an Alberg can handle washing down the river side ways, can handle the abuse.

But I'm thinking, if an Alberg can fight the current, then a lighter boat should be able to handle the currents better. Especially with keel retracted.

Sounds like you really need a jetski!

[Scout 30]

If you're pulling with a Hyundai the Catalina 22 is probably not an option due to weight. What is the towing weight the car is rated for? It's not a good idea to exceed this. Displacement specs typically reflect dry weight. Adding fuel, water & provisions can increase the weight dramatically plus you have to add the weight of the motor & trailer. Applying your draft & weight parameters will significantly narrow down your choices.

[Ungvar]

Good advice Scout, I checked the towing capacity for my car, which is a 4 wheel drive model, and it is rated for 3500 lbs. Displacement for the CS 22 is 2200 lbs, so I think my car will be okay. I am not in a hilly or mountainous region.

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