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Old 08-06-2015, 09:04   #16
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

The only real important issue is the thickness of the hull. If it is acceptable, the next question is whether you have the time and knowledge to work on the issues on the report or money as a replacement to that.
If you have both (i.e. time and skills) you can fix major share of the list by yourself and pay for the rest to be fixed/replaced by professionals.
You can take the list to a boatyard and ask for quotation. This will be a negotiation tool for the final price.

In the last year I have surveyed two boats in a similar condition (although made of GRP). Basically sound vessels in a highly neglected state. Both were purchased by the clients who hired me in spite of the (very) long list of comments and suggestions for repair/updates.
The first boat was refurbished by the new owner and he set sail this month from Israel arriving at Greece. The boat currently is gleaming and un-recognisable.
The other guy is negotiating now most of the renovation work with a small firm of highly qualified professionals as he is busy at his job.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:23   #17
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

More notes from the broker:

Boat was built in 1982 but not launched until 1992, and then was kept in fresh water until 2011, it seems since its life in salt water it has not had the proper upkeep. So I would assume that's good news for the plating?

More from the survey:

GENERAL CONDITION
Hull and Deck:Good condition.
Bottom:Good condition.
Antifouling in poor condition.
Mast & Rigging:Average condition.
Structural Integrity:Apparently satisfactory.
Thru-hulls & Underwater Plumbing:Fair condition.
Machinery:Average condition.
Tankage and Piping:Average condition.
Electrical:Average condition.
NAV & Electronics:Fair condition.
Safety:Poor condition. No PDFs or distress signals.
Accommodations:Good condition.
OVERALL:Good condition.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:37   #18
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

Ok, htx, will try and help you with the survey,

this is pretty interesting, surveyor seems to answer his own question.

number 20
20. Vibrations noted. Possibly due to misalign and or loose engine mount. Investigate and repair as necessary.

number 22:
22. Forward port engine mount is loose at engine. Check engine alignment, correct if necessary. Tighten engine mount to manufacturer's specifications.

Ok, let us look at the survey:
If you look at the items on this list, it breaks down to this:

10 items need to be fixed:
12,17,18,19,22,23,24,39,40,57

18 are simple maintenance items that should be done:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,13,14,15,16,26,27,36,37,44

11 items are information
8,10,28,29,34,35,38,41,45,58,59

and 19 items are suggestions:
25,30,31,32,33,42,46,47,48,,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,5 6,60,61

So it is really not a bad survey, you could use these to work the price down, have the yard to the 10 items that need to be fixed, do the maintenance yourself and deal with the suggestions as appropriate

Hope this helps you htx some folks may not agree with my classifications, these are just my opinions.

Michael
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:48   #19
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

I suspect that there are a couple of items in that list for all of us!!
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:01   #20
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

That survey indicates a boat that has been neglected. It needs a lot of work. However, it could be a heck of a boat if you have the time and money to get it up to snuff. It could be a lot of money.
One concern is a plate in place of the cooling water cap. ? The temp gauge not working. The engine /drive is also noted as "rough". You could have engine problems rather than just alignment issues.
From what I read it sounds like most the exterior of the boat needs to be sandblasted and painted. You will likely ned to go to a commercial yard for that.
The various things noted will be a ton of hard labor oriented work. Even if you do much of your own work I wouldn't be surprised if you will easily spend $50k more on the boat.
That seems to be a very minimal survey report. I would not be satisfied with that survey unless you just agreed on a quick condition report.
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:27   #21
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
That survey indicates a boat that has been neglected. It needs a lot of work. However, it could be a heck of a boat if you have the time and money to get it up to snuff. It could be a lot of money.
One concern is a plate in place of the cooling water cap. ? The temp gauge not working. The engine /drive is also noted as "rough". You could have engine problems rather than just alignment issues.
From what I read it sounds like most the exterior of the boat needs to be sandblasted and painted. You will likely ned to go to a commercial yard for that.
The various things noted will be a ton of hard labor oriented work. Even if you do much of your own work I wouldn't be surprised if you will easily spend $50k more on the boat.
That seems to be a very minimal survey report. I would not be satisfied with that survey unless you just agreed on a quick condition report.
The full survey is 26 pages with lots more info, I just posted the recommended issue list from it. From viewing the pictures, it seems that yes it is in need of a bottom job, topside however appears to just need attention in small areas on the deck, and the woodwork needs to be refinished(but isn't that usually the case?)

I am a simple fellow, I don't require a fancy looking boat with everything shiny and working at a %100. I am fairly handy but have no experience with engines or welding so issues in those catagories would be a hired job most likely.
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:29   #22
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikem View Post
Ok, htx, will try and help you with the survey,

this is pretty interesting, surveyor seems to answer his own question.

number 20
20. Vibrations noted. Possibly due to misalign and or loose engine mount. Investigate and repair as necessary.

number 22:
22. Forward port engine mount is loose at engine. Check engine alignment, correct if necessary. Tighten engine mount to manufacturer's specifications.

Ok, let us look at the survey:
If you look at the items on this list, it breaks down to this:

10 items need to be fixed:
12,17,18,19,22,23,24,39,40,57

18 are simple maintenance items that should be done:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,13,14,15,16,26,27,36,37,44

11 items are information
8,10,28,29,34,35,38,41,45,58,59

and 19 items are suggestions:
25,30,31,32,33,42,46,47,48,,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,5 6,60,61

So it is really not a bad survey, you could use these to work the price down, have the yard to the 10 items that need to be fixed, do the maintenance yourself and deal with the suggestions as appropriate

Hope this helps you htx some folks may not agree with my classifications, these are just my opinions.

Michael
As a surveyor myself, this is the most accurate information you could find in this thread. The idea of sending it off to have someone correct everything on the list will absolutely break you. Every boat needs things corrected. Other than a few thousand dollars worth of professional work (haulout, alignment, mast tuning, seacock work) everything else is stuff that you need to do yourself so you can develop the skills necessary to own a liveaboard. Good luck with it!
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:35   #23
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

From personal experience, there is always more to these issues than it appears to be, there are always more problems than the ones listed, it is always more expensive to repair the problems than you think it is going to be, it always takes longer to repair the things that are wrong. Having said that, I like working on my boat, but the above statements have all been true for me over the years and many different used boats. If you are determined to get this vessel, I would make very sure that the "rough" part of the running has to do with misalignment and not a bigger problem with the prop, reduction gear, or motor.
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:44   #24
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

OK, here's what I'm thinking, this is just the big stuff. As someone mentioned earlier, figure you will find twice as much as you currently know..SWAG:
RECOMMENDATIONS AND APPRAISAL FINDINGS
1. Scattered rust noted along port and starboard deck around welded life line bases, on deck house to deck welded joint, along deck house brow, inside hatch slides. Clean, inspect, repair if necessary. Properly prepare surface for selected paint system. Recoat.
2. Remove bolted deck fittings such as pulpits, hand rails and dorades. Clean, inspect and repair if necessary. Properly prepare surface, recoat and properly bed fixtures upon installation.
Proper fix for longevity should be blasted, primed and painted. $5-8K? (If you remove/replace all the pulpits, deck hardware, wood etc etc. Bolts may break off if they are threaded into the steel boat rather than thru bolted.)
Alternatively you could just grind and paint with a brush to protect.

3. Exterior wood needs refinishing.
4. Sliding hatch is rotting and delaminated. Repair.
5. Cockpit sole grating is broken. Repair.
You can do these items above
6. Anti-fouling paint is in poor condition. Renew.
7. Hull paint contains scattered ˝” or less blisters down to the metal. Remove and renew.
Commercial yard, blast, prime, renew Hull paint and bottom paint $5-8K??


8. Vessel is 33 years old. Perform audio gauging/ultrasonic thickness measurements.
9. Opening port gaskets are hard. Renew gaskets.

10. Age of rigging unknown. Candy cane stripes noted. Have a qualified rigger inspect.
11. Turnbuckles are missing cotter pins. Install cotter pins, properly spread.
12. Running backstays are plastic coated wire. The plastic is staining. Renew backstays with non-coated wire or synthetic line.
Rigging $1500-2500?


13. Sun protective covering on head sail is torn. Repair or renew.
What are the sails actually like? What sails does it have? What is your intention, offshore? $1k-$10K
14. Mast needs tuning. Have a qualified rigger tune.
15. Mast boot is worn. Renew.
16. Plastic Dutchman patches in main sail are loose. Repair or renew.

17. Heat exchanger cap has been replaced with a plate. Remove plate to check coolant level.
18. Engine water inlet seacock body bolts are wasting. Clean, service and renew bolts, renew seacock if necessary. Seacock is welded to the hull.
19. Plastic muffler sighted. Renew with one that meets UL-94. Fiberglass is acceptable.
20. Vibrations noted. Possibly due to misalign and or loose engine mount. Investigate and repair as necessary.
21. Rust noted on propeller shaft. Remove, clean and inspect. Renew if necessary. 22. Forward port engine mount is loose at engine. Check engine alignment, correct if necessary. Tighten engine mount to manufacturer's specifications.
23. Engine temperature gauge is not functioning. Repair.
24. Throttle stopped functioning as the vessel returned to slip. Repair.
25. Pull propeller shaft. Clean and inspect, especially in the packing gland area. Renew if necessary.
26. Change all engine filters and fluids.
27. Repack propeller packing gland. Properly adjust after installation.
28. Bottom pintle and gudgeon has slightly more play than the upper two.
Items 17-28. Hard to say. If need engine $20K

Monitor. 29. 120VAC outlet in galley not GFCI protected. Install GFCI protection for all 120VAC outlets to meet current ABYC Standard E-11.15.3.5 and prevent electric shock.
30. Install Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) to meet current ABYC standards.
31. Install AC voltage meter.
32. Install DC voltage meter.
33. Aft battery: a. Cover to insulated positive post. b. More than four conductors on terminal. Remove conductors and terminate four or less on battery post. Installation of terminal strip may be necessary. c. Terminated in incorrect order. Land largest conductor first followed by next smaller.
34. Switch in head not labeled for function. Determine function and label.
35. Two switches in galley not labeled for function. Determine function and label. 36. Renew anodes.
37. Formica is lifted from cabinet in galley. Repair as necessary.
38. Strong sewage odor. Investigate and repair.
39. Toilet water inlet seacock did not operate. Bolts are rusting. Clean, service and renew bolts, renew seacock if necessary. Seacock is welded to the hull.
40. LPG system:
a. Locker requires a rubber gasket on hatch.
b. No other items are to be stowed in the locker.
c. Bottle requires securing.
d. Did not pass leak test. Investigate and repair leak.
e. Do not use liquids containing ammonium to check for leaks. f. Install proper warning label next to locker. See attached example.
g. Provide LPG detector.
h. Bottom of locker is rusty. Clean and re-coat.
41. Secure refrigerator.
42. Provide a manually operated bilge pump. Pump should be operable from the helm.
43. Provide high bilge water alarm.
44. Windlass is stiff to operate. Service windlass.
45. Anchor rode is worn and parted. Renew.
46. Provide a means of re-boarding vessel from the water with the bottom rung/step at least 24” below the water line.
47. Mount compass and check deviation. Provide a deviation card. Be aware that moving the mounting location, due to steel hull construction, will change deviation. Prove light operation.
48. Provide additional means of dewatering vessel.
49. Provide updated navigational charts for areas of operation.
50. Provide Garbage Placard.
51. Provide Texas Clean Water decal.
52. Provide on board a copy of the Inland Navigation Rules.
53. Forward navigation light wiring has wire nuts. Remove wire nuts and properly splice wiring.
54. Provide distress signals.
55. Provide proper type, size and quantity of personal floatation devices for conditions and number of crew/guests.
56. Provide Type IV (throw type) device.
57. White stern light is not functioning. Repair.
58. Prove anchor light and steaming light before operating vessel after sunset.
59. Non-serviceable fire extinguishers should be renewed every six years. Renew both extinguishers. Inspect and note gauge position annually.
60. Install marine carbon monoxide monitor/alarms (ABYC Std. A-24) and smoke detector/fire alarms (NFPA 302) to protect all enclosed accommodations.
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:30   #25
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

The Mooney is a steel boat. Steel boats need lots of love and they need to be used. They don’t react well to being left. As others have pointed out most of the list is just typical and continuous maintenance for a steel boat. The big issue I think is actually the motor. Sounds like it has issues. But it is a Saab and they were built to last forever.

Perhaps you should ask questions and read up about steel boats and their maintenance and then decide if a steel boat is for you. Fibreglass is first choice for most for some very good reasons. Then again here’s a boat, sounds like you’ve fallen for her, she’s for sale, and you’ll likely get her for 10K. Spend another 400-500 hours of work and another 10K over as long as you like, and she will scrub up pretty well and be a good value 35 footer.

And even if you don’t have the skills, now you can learn. Again are you a handy person? A mate of mine boat a lovely old steel girl and no time at all taught himself to weld.

I came across this video series on Youtube that is an inspiration when it comes to bringing a boat back to life. The boat is aluminium not steel, but very similar issues. In a few months the woman got the boat sorted. She had no skills, almost no money and very little help. Here’s the link.

There’s some cold beer waiting for you here in New Zealand when you sail in.
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Old 08-06-2015, 13:01   #26
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

What does the bilge look like?

The hull should be painted and insulated to prevent interior rust. Do you know if the hull is insulated?

Later,
Dan
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Old 08-06-2015, 13:55   #27
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

One thing no one else has mentioned (at least, I don't think so) is that the motor is significantly smaller than what the boat originally came with, which was on the small side to begin with. This is a boat that displaces very nearly 16,500 lbs. Going by the current "rule of thumb," this boat should have an auxiliary somewhere between 25 and 35 hp. It originally came with a 23 hp engine. It now has an 18 hp engine. That is getting way down on the low end of the range.

Unless you only plan on moving it to and from the dock, in calm weather, I would plan on a bigger motor pretty soon. Given the other engine issues, you may need to plan on a new motor anyway.

Good luck!
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Old 08-06-2015, 14:42   #28
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

If you intend to insure the boat you should realize that your insurer will likely require that you do ALL of the surveyor's recommended repairs and fix all of the other identified items before it will insure your boat ---so you will need to spend a lot of $$$$ and/or time before you can sail away on your dream ---as for the cost of repairs--make your best estimate and then double it --as for the time to do the repairs: make your best estimate and then triple it --buy this boat if you want to learn how to repair and maintain boats--don't buy it if you want to go sailing
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Old 08-06-2015, 15:15   #29
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmc View Post
I came across this video series on Youtube that is an inspiration when it comes to bringing a boat back to life. The boat is aluminium not steel, but very similar issues. In a few months the woman got the boat sorted. She had no skills, almost no money and very little help.
Here’s the link
.
granitic, Mahalo for the Youtube site. Anyone thinking of buying a fixer boat that has never had the experience should look at this video. I only watched the first 13 episodes, was that 13 weeks?? It covered her purchase of the boat in Panama and the myriad of issues she had to deal with getting a very neglected boat ready to go to sea. You see the many false starts, the breakdowns and repairs, the ton of work that she had to do to make the boat livable. She's a very resourceful lady who doesn't just call a professional when things go wrong but digs in to fix things herself. She was fortunate to have a boat wright stay with her for a while to help with major issues but she was right in there with him doing the work. The before and after condition reflects the ton of work she did.

If you haven't bought in less than Bristol condition before, thinking of buying a project, like to live vicariously, or just want to suffer along with another in the same boat, these videos are a must see. Inspired me to get back on my project. After all, it's supposedly all about sailing the damn thing.
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:52   #30
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Re: Help me inspect these survey notes please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
One thing no one else has mentioned (at least, I don't think so) is that the motor is significantly smaller than what the boat originally came with, which was on the small side to begin with. This is a boat that displaces very nearly 16,500 lbs. Going by the current "rule of thumb," this boat should have an auxiliary somewhere between 25 and 35 hp. It originally came with a 23 hp engine. It now has an 18 hp engine. That is getting way down on the low end of the range.

Unless you only plan on moving it to and from the dock, in calm weather, I would plan on a bigger motor pretty soon. Given the other engine issues, you may need to plan on a new motor anyway.

Good luck!


In this case, the engine is a SAAB, I believe. Those were conservatively rated, super torquey, low rpm monsters that came with a variable pitch prop. They may not have the high rpm hp ratings of the tractor conversion marine engines but put everything and more of what they claimed into driving the boat. With the variable pitch prop, the prop pitch could be perfectly tuned to the engines output to give very effective power.
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