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Old 29-12-2011, 00:28   #76
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by jobi View Post
sorry just got out of the rat race...whatevers next comes free of charge for me...I can share all my life experience (free of charge) with anyone on this forum...surly there are some real experienced sailors willing to share (free of charge) on this forum.

I have written 3 books on herpetology in the last 25years, however iv written 300+ articles and 1000s posts (free of charge) in the same time frame...so pleas dont play me the value of expertise card
now a days I only value what is given from the hart.
What John has given you is good advice, there are no short cuts with nature as you would be well aware of, i have a Para Anchor as part of my equipment and quite honestly am happy with that choice.
If you study the website John gave you the link to you can glean info just from the pre-amble expertise is the 'ACE' card to me because it comes from research and experience.
Your idea of making a webbing drogue is miles away from throwing a solid object over the side and if your connections and stitching are extremely good you may be on a winner.
You need to keep the line to your webbing as near level as you can to reduce the tendency of the whole unit 'popping up', like a lure on a line.
I think all advice given on this Forum is indeed from the heart, there's certainly no reward or gain that i see.
Makeshift drogues made of tyres buckets etc come from emergent situations where you need to slow a boats uncontrolled drift down so you frantically tie what you can find onto a rope and desperately "give it a go" buckets, tyre fenders etc etc. BUT if you are setting your boat up prior then your idea of a webbing drogue isn't a bad one at all. Cheers you are on the right track. :-)
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Old 29-12-2011, 00:33   #77
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Usually wing keels are used to try to make a shoal draft version of a keel work better. The original wing keel on the AC boat got them added draft that wasn't measured by the 12 meter rule. I suppose if you're talking about adding wings to a deep keel it would also make it work better, but I believe in most cases a deep keel will perform better than a shoal wing. Bob Perry said somewhere a deeper keel always performs better.

John
I agree, and Bob Perry, of course, knows more about it than we do.

Wings are sometimes added to shoal keels to partially compensate for loss of performance. But they are not not only for shoal keels. Remember that Australia II took away the America's Cup for the first time, using a wing keel.

They add performance by inhibiting the tip vortex and drag created by this. See: Wingtip device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 29-12-2011, 00:42   #78
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
What John has given you is good advice, there are no short cuts with nature as you would be well aware of, i have a Para Anchor as part of my equipment and quite honestly am happy with that choice.
If you study the website John gave you the link to you can glean info just from the pre-amble expertise is the 'ACE' card to me because it comes from research and experience.
Your idea of making a webbing drogue is miles away from throwing a solid object over the side and if your connections and stitching are extremely good you may be on a winner.
You need to keep the line to your webbing as near level as you can to reduce the tendency of the whole unit 'popping up', like a lure on a line.
I think all advice given on this Forum is indeed from the heart, there's certainly no reward or gain that i see.
Makeshift drogues made of tyres buckets etc come from emergent situations where you need to slow a boats uncontrolled drift down so you frantically tie what you can find onto a rope and desperately "give it a go" buckets, tyre fenders etc etc. BUT if you are setting your boat up prior then your idea of a webbing drogue isn't a bad one at all. Cheers you are on the right track. :-)
I totaly apeciate jhons advice...dont get me wrong!!
I was only stating that from now on in my life, I will only pay for materials, and this if its absolutly nasasary...in most cases I will find free alternative to whats nasasary
id rather give the full of my pockets to a mother trying to feed her child then pay for others expertise...been aronde the world and seen its true value

back to the drogue...will try to make the car belts work for me...perhaps size and spacing of straps would help me...any ideas?

rgds
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:13   #79
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

I googled it and this came up on eBay. For use on SAILBOAT ~ STORM DROGUE w/ LINES, SWIVEL, & STORAGE ~ NEW! | Key Largo | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 533804

There is also the Galerider drogue here Galerider Storm Drogue

I think these are what you are thinking of. eBay one on the left, Galerider on the right.
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:18   #80
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I googled it and this came up on eBay. For use on SAILBOAT ~ STORM DROGUE w/ LINES, SWIVEL, & STORAGE ~ NEW! | Key Largo | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 533804

There is also the Galerider drogue here Galerider Storm Drogue

I think these are what you are thinking of. eBay one on the left, Galerider on the right.
thanks alot for your trouble...I cant surf the net tonight (having problems)
that is very much what I have in mind...only I was thinking bigger 6 to 8ft but I see its overkill
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:21   #81
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

Yes it would be overkill for your size of boat. I would think 24" - 30" diameter would be large enough.
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:22   #82
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

Photos below are from my trip across the Australian Bight in November 2010. We hove-to in 35 - 45 knots 80Nm from the South Australian Coast due to heavy seas 6m +. A cross swell which we punched through 2 or 3times, not my wifes most popular sailing.

Sails at the time were triple reefed main and storm jib we packed up the main before we hove-to. The farr hove-to well but fore-reached at 2knots which took us out of our slick. I reduce this to 0.2 knot with 50m of rope and a bucket streamed of the bow. We were still going side ways at 2 knot but settled.

It lasted for 12 hours in which we traveled 24Nm off our course, we did get slapped a few times when the wind picked up and we slided out of our slick. Spent our time watching dvd and getting a good feed between watch keeping dutys.

We have a para anchor but didnt deploy it due to engine problems water in the fuel a bit worried about getting it back on board with out the motor.

Yacht choice and design is personal we love the fin keels. If my motor is running and we had wind at a constant 45+ knots I would put the para anchor over the side but bridled to keep her beam on to make a slick it works hove-to it should be the same under anchor.

You can only try and see what works for you.

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Farr 36 Keel

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Farr 36 in slings

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Sliding down another one

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Shot turbalance of hull

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Backing Off
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:23   #83
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I agree, and Bob Perry, of course, knows more about it than we do.

Wings are sometimes added to shoal keels to partially compensate for loss of performance. But they are not not only for shoal keels. Remember that Australia II took away the America's Cup for the first time, using a wing keel.

They add performance by inhibiting the tip vortex and drag created by this. See: Wingtip device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I brought up Australia 2 in my post. I was saying that it was an un-measured advantage. If you make a deeper keel you have to give up an advantage somewhere else in the 12 meter rule. They got an effectively deeper keel without a penalty. It was ruled legal so good for them. Now many classes have rules about whether wings or bulbs are allowed or not. The wings are supposedly kind of draggy, not enough to be an issue upwind, but hurts you offwind. You don't see wings on VOR boats. I read somewhere that a well designed bulb is just as good as a wing for reducing tip vortices and has less drag.



John
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:48   #84
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
I read somewhere that a well designed bulb is just as good as a wing for reducing tip vortices and has less drag.
John
That's interesting -- appreciate a link if you can remember where you read that. I thought wings had additional advantages when heeled (lateral resistance) plus lift down, counteracting heeling moment. Yes, they have greater wetted surface than a bulb, so more drag. But will be tremendously better than a plain fin of the same length overall.
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Old 29-12-2011, 01:53   #85
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Read this book for several real world accounts of people using sea anchors off the bow and drogues off the stern.

drag device data base

my oppologies...at first I saw an addvertisment page...now I can read alot of info from that site...thank you John
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Old 30-12-2011, 08:36   #86
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I thought the pardeys covered heaving-to in a modern boat pretty well... am I missing something, or did nobody else read the book?

I've never had to heave-to in a storm, so I'm only repeating what I understand from the Pardey method.

Larry says; on a modern fin keeled boat you'll need to heave-to with both a jib and a main, storm sized sails obviously, and the jib would be best if on an innerforestay, or a staysail. The main should be a reefed main instead of the long-footed trisail type of shape.

Once hove-to, a parachute anchor is deployed on a bridle off the bow.

The whole parachute anchor thing they preach is specific to fin keeled boats, precisely because of all the mentioned problems in this thread.... They recommend the parachute anchor is deployed as soon the boat cannot maintain the hoave-to postion without it. This is the same recommendation for either type of boat, but it'll happen a lot sooner on a fin keeler.

Their method for heaving-to a tradional keeler is entirely different.
The Pardey's are brought up in every sailing thread and there is no problem with that. The issue for any sailor is locking in to one idea or method to the exclusion of others.

Most all of us are not storm chasers. We will get limited opportunity to test out all these theories. The best storm tactic is storm avoidance. I sail a lot in thundstorms just because we have lots of thunderstorms around my area. I take the opportunity to understand my boats behavior. I understand and different boat will have different behavior.

I see 4 main tactics for storms

- short sails with various configuration of sail plans and storm sails
- hove to with various configurations of sail plans
- riding anchor off bow using everything from parachutes, to tires, to anchors to buckets
- drogue anchor off the stern using all the ideas in tactic 3 With the addition of series drogue

Having read tons of threads on storm tactics and probably one or two real CF members with real storm experience my go to plan will be the series drogue and run before the storm.

The main reason is that I think I can "make" the drougues from old sail cloth, they will store easily and compactly and they are easy to deploy and relatively easy to rertrieve.

However if running before the storm is a heading straight to the rocks then the backup plan for me is hove to with engine assist into the storm. Not necessarily to make way but to hold position.

My key swing thought is don't get locked into one strategy.
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Old 30-12-2011, 09:36   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

The Pardey's are brought up in every sailing thread and there is no problem with that. The issue for any sailor is locking in to one idea or method to the exclusion of others.

Most all of us are not storm chasers. We will get limited opportunity to test out all these theories. The best storm tactic is storm avoidance.
If the best storm tactic is storm avoidance, then the second best tactic has to be to maximize waterline. If it takes me five days to make a passage that takes you a week, then you've got a 29% better chance of running into a storm than I do.

That's the part of storm tactics that the Pardeys don't seem to espouse. Their system predicates on small boats.
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Old 30-12-2011, 10:04   #88
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

I have no atraction whatsoever to storms...however I know they will be unavoidable to me in the future...been reading and exchanging with hinterhoeller hull no17...this guy has crossed the atlantic all the way to south africa in a 1965 HR28...hes been in sevear weather many times, once 12h bare pole and still doing 7kn on average (6.5 to 7kn is the average speed of an HR28)...also talked with Mirielle Saucy a 1969 Hinterhoeller HR28 that crossed the atlantic 5 times...both have never deploiyed a sea anchor or drogue...and they have been in sirious storm conditions...Mirielle is presently at sea on his benetau 43 (war eagle) and Yves hull no17 is presently delivering a yacht to the bahamas??
but I will ask them why they used no drogue??
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Old 30-12-2011, 10:09   #89
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

Yves hull no17 would seek bad weather and sail righ into it...using it as a slingshut to make faster progress...ya I know them crazy french!!
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Old 30-12-2011, 18:57   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash

If the best storm tactic is storm avoidance, then the second best tactic has to be to maximize waterline. If it takes me five days to make a passage that takes you a week, then you've got a 29% better chance of running into a storm than I do.

That's the part of storm tactics that the Pardeys don't seem to espouse. Their system predicates on small boats.
Well, let's not get carried away. First of all, with all due respect, this sounds kind of elitist, as if you can just choose waterline length as an option. A boat like yours costs significantly more than smaller boats so no need to flaunt that as if those of us who can only afford smaller boats merely passed up larger ones as a matter of choice.

Secondly, your calculation above doesn't take into account the fact that storms are tougher to avoid on longer passages. If we're only out for a week, both of us could anticipate a storm and delay departure. routing around storms on long passages is not as simple as speed. systems can move at 35-50 knots easily. Supposing you're sailing away at your hull speed of 8 knots, and I can only make 6.5 knots hull speed. 40-8= 32 kts closing speed. 40-6.5= 33.5 kts closing speed. That's only a 5% difference, not enough to bank on.

I'd focus on storm preparedness in both of our boats, but I do acknowledge yours will be more comfortable in the storm by dint of size, while claiming mine will be far more comfortable than a Hunter 33.

The fastest way to travel or escape storms is in a airplane. Once you're on a sailboat the field levels significantly.
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