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Old 28-12-2011, 19:45   #61
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

Just to get into the Bucket thing ! In my youth my first job was with a couple of OLDER local long liners, 32 ft Monteray double ender, fishing out of Trinadad Cali. now these guys netted everything floats,net balls everything encluding the bucket !! they removed the bail and netted it with a 15- 20 ft line attached to the netting in place of the bail. Let me tell ya better have a good hold on that line when ya tossed it over board and have your feet planted cus the darn thing has a bunch of pull !! LOL if you tyed it to the rall and tossed it over it would slow that old Palmer down a couple of knots !! I don't know about a storm safety measure, but they will pull ya in if your not ready for the pull !! don't ask me how I know LOL Bob and Connie
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Old 28-12-2011, 19:45   #62
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

I thought the pardeys covered heaving-to in a modern boat pretty well... am I missing something, or did nobody else read the book?

I've never had to heave-to in a storm, so I'm only repeating what I understand from the Pardey method.

Larry says; on a modern fin keeled boat you'll need to heave-to with both a jib and a main, storm sized sails obviously, and the jib would be best if on an innerforestay, or a staysail. The main should be a reefed main instead of the long-footed trisail type of shape.

Once hove-to, a parachute anchor is deployed on a bridle off the bow.

The whole parachute anchor thing they preach is specific to fin keeled boats, precisely because of all the mentioned problems in this thread.... They recommend the parachute anchor is deployed as soon the boat cannot maintain the hoave-to postion without it. This is the same recommendation for either type of boat, but it'll happen a lot sooner on a fin keeler.

Their method for heaving-to a tradional keeler is entirely different.
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Old 28-12-2011, 20:00   #63
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Just to get into the Bucket thing ! In my youth my first job was with a couple of OLDER local long liners, 32 ft Monteray double ender, fishing out of Trinadad Cali. now these guys netted everything floats,net balls everything encluding the bucket !! they removed the bail and netted it with a 15- 20 ft line attached to the netting in place of the bail. Let me tell ya better have a good hold on that line when ya tossed it over board and have your feet planted cus the darn thing has a bunch of pull !! LOL if you tyed it to the rall and tossed it over it would slow that old Palmer down a couple of knots !! I don't know about a storm safety measure, but they will pull ya in if your not ready for the pull !! don't ask me how I know LOL Bob and Connie
I got the picture in my mind of you going arse up ........Ha ha you could win a holiday if captured on video :-)
To be honest when you let fishing line out whilst underway to remove twist it alwas amazes me the loading you get, just shows what letting a length of anchor rope will do to slow up progress. Lots of friction for sure.....
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Old 28-12-2011, 20:44   #64
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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LMAO How many modern day yachts would have a substantial METAL bucket aboard?
Handles and connections as strong as the rope used???? Seriously can any contributor actually attest that they have used a bucket for this purpose?
.......
I guess I must be quaint as I have two substantial metal buckets aboard; one galvanised steel and the other stainless (both about 2 gallons / 10 litres); on a 31'er. The handle on the gal. bucket is not so strong but the SS one is. I have never used them as drogues, just bucket type duties.

Oh and I have several tyres / fenders - smallish aircraft tyres (Cessna). I wrap them in old white / silver rope and they are great!

FWIW.
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Old 28-12-2011, 21:05   #65
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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I guess I must be quaint as I have two substantial metal buckets aboard; one galvanised steel and the other stainless (both about 2 gallons / 10 litres); on a 31'er. The handle on the gal. bucket is not so strong but the SS one is. I have never used them as drogues, just bucket type duties.

Oh and I have several tyres / fenders - smallish aircraft tyres (Cessna). I wrap them in old white / silver rope and they are great!

FWIW.
So funny it was for many years a part of Qld survey to have a metal bucket painted red for fire duty on board all Charter boats, not good when cats came visiting.
Aircraft tyres wrapped in net or rope or even canvas make resielent fenders for sure. Cheers.
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Old 28-12-2011, 21:25   #66
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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For the life of me i cannot understand why bother throwing old car tyres or buckets over the back or front of a vessel to slow it down?
To buy a drogue or sea-anchor for your boat is a part of being ready to cope with conditions that may crop up in the area you are intending to sail is not a huge outlay.
IMHO the comfort provided by using TRIED & TESTED equipment far out-ways relying on gerry-rigged rubbish.
LMAO i can picture a metal bucket or tyre being spat back at the deployer!!!!!
Let's see you have a Lagoon and I have a 1965 Cal 40 that was under $40k. I think that our ideas of what might be expensive could be different. Not that I'd be very much excited about dealing with tires, but cobbling stuff together is the only way I'm going to get to go long term cruising.

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Old 28-12-2011, 21:41   #67
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think a Scheel keel is actually better than a regular bulb keel, at least, hydrodynamically. Like with a wing keel -- you get a big boost from the "end plate effect".

AFAIK both of these designs are superior to regular fin or bulb keels except only for one thing -- it is a big, big mess if you run aground with one. A wing keel, especially, will act just like an anchor when it hits the mud, and then you are really royally screwed. AFAIK that's the only reason why they are not universally used.

The "high perf bulb" (so-called by the designer) on my boat is significantly flattened, which I guess is an attempt to increase the end-plate effect. It looks a bit like a Scheel keel. There's no free lunch, however -- I shudder violently when I think about running aground in mud, which thank God and Neptune I have never done -- so far.

OTOH, the flat bottom of the bulb allows her to stand very nicely on her keel when I'm dried out in a dry dock.
Usually wing keels are used to try to make a shoal draft version of a keel work better. The original wing keel on the AC boat got them added draft that wasn't measured by the 12 meter rule. I suppose if you're talking about adding wings to a deep keel it would also make it work better, but I believe in most cases a deep keel will perform better than a shoal wing. Bob Perry said somewhere a deeper keel always performs better.

John
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Old 28-12-2011, 21:43   #68
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Let's see you have a Lagoon and I have a 1965 Cal 40 that was under $40k. I think that our ideas of what might be expensive could be different. Not that I'd be very much excited about dealing with tires, but cobbling stuff together is the only way I'm going to get to go long term cruising.

John
John im a retired boat builder started building chine steel then round bilge in steel and aluminium. Never made any real money out of boats just lots of rewards seeing them sail the world.
I well know the feeling of frugal living on board as well as building boats for myself as and when i could afford it. I'm a blue collar worker a boilermaker by trade, my point is the time that you decide to deploy a drogue is usually when conditions are bad and it's nice to be comforted by something you can trust.
Somehow i've always put new tyres on my car wanting always to err on the side of caution. And never had a new car!!
To bring some form of class distinction into this thread is not helpful, the point was more about deploying a proper designed item rather than throwing metal buckets, car tyres or old dogs tied to a rope....
A decent length of anchor rope ON ITS OWN would probably suffice it's simply a matter of testing/trying in moderate conditions before really needing it.

Nature in my experience soon unravels shortcuts, that's not to say everything bought is right BUT everything tested and proven at least gives some peace of mind.
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Old 28-12-2011, 22:28   #69
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

A bit off topic but the bucket thing and old salt the outer week pushed his boom out with a bucket tied off to stop his boat rolling at anchor, it worked quite well.
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Old 28-12-2011, 22:46   #70
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
I thought the pardeys covered heaving-to in a modern boat pretty well... am I missing something, or did nobody else read the book?

I've never had to heave-to in a storm, so I'm only repeating what I understand from the Pardey method.

Larry says; on a modern fin keeled boat you'll need to heave-to with both a jib and a main, storm sized sails obviously, and the jib would be best if on an innerforestay, or a staysail. The main should be a reefed main instead of the long-footed trisail type of shape.

Once hove-to, a parachute anchor is deployed on a bridle off the bow.

The whole parachute anchor thing they preach is specific to fin keeled boats, precisely because of all the mentioned problems in this thread.... They recommend the parachute anchor is deployed as soon the boat cannot maintain the hoave-to postion without it. This is the same recommendation for either type of boat, but it'll happen a lot sooner on a fin keeler.

Their method for heaving-to a tradional keeler is entirely different.
Thanks will check this out!!!
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Old 28-12-2011, 22:56   #71
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

Many sugestions have been made...however thats is not what I had in mind as a DIY draugh...I have 100+ old car seat belts, I want to sew them with a palm stitcher and build a 6ft diametre net solid enough to survive any storm...pulled behind with 200ft rode?
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Old 28-12-2011, 23:05   #72
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Many sugestions have been made...however thats is not what I had in mind as a DIY draugh...I have 100+ old car seat belts, I want to sew them with a palm stitcher and build a 6ft diametre net solid enough to survive any storm...pulled behind with 200ft rode?
Now your talking there's a few designs on the web (excuse the pun) that you could get ideas from you wont need much surface area to get the effect. Cheers Frank
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Old 28-12-2011, 23:26   #73
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think a Scheel keel is actually better than a regular bulb keel, at least, hydrodynamically. Like with a wing keel -- you get a big boost from the "end plate effect".

AFAIK both of these designs are superior to regular fin or bulb keels except only for one thing -- it is a big, big mess if you run aground with one. A wing keel, especially, will act just like an anchor when it hits the mud, and then you are really royally screwed. AFAIK that's the only reason why they are not universally used.

The "high perf bulb" (so-called by the designer) on my boat is significantly flattened, which I guess is an attempt to increase the end-plate effect. It looks a bit like a Scheel keel. There's no free lunch, however -- I shudder violently when I think about running aground in mud, which thank God and Neptune I have never done -- so far.

OTOH, the flat bottom of the bulb allows her to stand very nicely on her keel when I'm dried out in a dry dock.
Thats interesting...my keel is bulbous up front and tapers like a teardrop at mid keel...bizar design?
will make sure not to aground in mud

do you think this keel is strong enough to stand my boat on?
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Old 28-12-2011, 23:45   #74
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Originally Posted by jobi View Post
Many sugestions have been made...however thats is not what I had in mind as a DIY draugh...I have 100+ old car seat belts, I want to sew them with a palm stitcher and build a 6ft diametre net solid enough to survive any storm...pulled behind with 200ft rode?
Read this book for several real world accounts of people using sea anchors off the bow and drogues off the stern.

drag device data base
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Old 29-12-2011, 00:02   #75
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Re: Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

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Read this book for several real world accounts of people using sea anchors off the bow and drogues off the stern.

drag device data base

sorry just got out of the rat race...whatevers next comes free of charge for me...I can share all my life experience (free of charge) with anyone on this forum...surly there are some real experienced sailors willing to share (free of charge) on this forum.

I have written 3 books on herpetology in the last 25years, however iv written 300+ articles and 1000s posts (free of charge) in the same time frame...so pleas dont play me the value of expertise card
now a days I only value what is given from the hart.
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