Headsail set up options for a 30' sloop

[Cthoops]

We have a Bristol 29.9 with a roller furler. We're cutting the lines in a bit over four years and either heading across the Atlantic or aiming for the South Pacific - which one is still up for dreaming and debating. In between researching and working on our latest projects, I've been thinking about heavy weather sails.

For heavy weather conditions, we can either change the sail on the furler, use a Gale Sail, partially furl the headsail, or add a second forestay. Am I missing any alternatives? We could also, of course, remove the furler and switch to hank-on sails.

I realize that a very small amount of time is actually spent in heavy weather while out cruising. I just want to make sure that as we weigh the pros and cons of what's right for us, there isn't another option that I'm not thinking of.

Thanks.

[Cheechako]

I haven’t tried a Gale Sail so cant comment on that. I like the solent rig/inner sail idea. One could just put it out there only when crossing oceans… and have the small sail hanked on in attached bag just like a staysail.

[brianlara 3]

My boat is only 24x9 feet so the foredeck in ten foot seas isn't fun.
So I have fitted a baby stay which is linked down to the bottom of the anchor bulkhead at water level. Hanked on with a downhaul line running through the hanks and back to cockpit.
Ditto the 120% Genoa.
So foredeck is a "no need to go" zone.
I can rip that gen down from cockpit in seconds and I'm left then with a stays'l/storm jib.
And it works for me, beating to windward with a partly furled Genoa is something I don't fancy the idea of.
Good luck.

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

For heavy weather conditions, we can either change the sail on the furler, use a Gale Sail, partially furl the headsail, or add a second forestay. Am I missing any alternatives? We could also, of course, remove the furler and switch to hank-on sails.

1. Changing the sail on a furler in heavy weather iwill be very difficult.
2. I've neve used a Gale sail, either. It might work fine, but I think it would likely be less efficient than a hanked on sail
3. You can furl the headsail 10%, 20%, even 30%, and it's still usable, but it will not work well to windward in really heavy weather.
4. Second forestay would be my preferred solution. You have at least a couple options: a) a solent stay (upper end near the top of the mast; doesn't require runners); or b) a conventional cutter stay with runners. Each has advantages. A solent stay is less expensive and simpler to rig and sail because it doesn't require runners. But a conventional cutter stay with runners adds more support to the mast. Either one will work very well with a hanked on storm sail (or yankee). A less obvious benefit is that the sail balance is much better with a storm jib on an inner forestay when your main is double or tripple reefed. One thing to keep in mind though is that you need to carefully engineer the deck attachment point for the inner stay so it can take the load without lifting or distorting the deck.

[Ziggy]

See this article on rigging a solent stay: Convert Your Sloop to a Double-Headsail Rig - Sail Magazine

[barnakiel]

Yep. I think you named the fore options well.

If you think heavy weather upwind, consider a mainsail that can be reefed very deep (a storm reef of sorts).

b.

[JPA Cate]

Cthoops,

What Jim did on his Yankee 30 was to use a KayZee head foil, with removable magazines, which allowed one to do inside/outside sail changes. The foil has two small t-tracks, and there are KayZee slugs to fit them that you sew to your sails. Jim had, iirc, one large headsail, a 100%, and a storm jib. Two sails lived in sunbrella sailbags on the foredeck on our 36 footer, but, again, iirc, on the Yankee, they were in bags secured in the forepeak. Mains'l had 2 reefs. It is actually quite a versatile system, and saves you adding another forestay. We rigged a line to make sure the slugs for the sail would stay on the magazine, and only released it when we plugged in the new magazine. Obviously, this does not keep you off the foredeck, but all in all, i found it a workable system, and surely Jim did, too, because he put one on the 36 footer when we got her.



Ann

[Cthoops]

Thanks for the feedback. The KayZee head foil sounds like a good compromise, Ann, but I did some Googling and it doesn't appear to be available anymore.

Good to know I've pretty much covered the bases in my research - now we'll just need to decide what to do. On the face of it, the second stay probably makes the most sense, but we'll need to see how it would fit as far as its placement goes. Between the anchor locker, a planned windlass, and the dinghy, I'm not sure how much extra room we'd have on the foredeck before it starts getting too cluttered. Switching to hank-ons would keep things simple in some ways, but not in others.

Guess this is yet another example of how everything on a boat is a compromise.

Thanks again.

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

Between the anchor locker, a planned windlass, and the dinghy, I'm not sure how much extra room we'd have on the foredeck before it starts getting too cluttered.

That pretty much describes the dillema I faced. I ended up installing a removable inner cutter stay. I still have space for the dinghy on the foredeck and the anchor locker is accessible, but there's no room for a windlass. Fortunately, I'm still able to haul my anchor by hand.

[Ziggy]

One further thought--if you elect to go with the removable solent stay option, it could go very close aft of the forestay, i.e., forward of the anchor locker, and would not interfere with dinghy storage or windlass at all.

[Cthoops]

Thanks, Ziggy. It's good to hear from people with similar setups. I've bookmarked the site that you linked on converting a sloop to a double headstay.

Our choice is definitely going to come down to either a double headstay or removing the furler and switching to hankons.

[Steve1944]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

We have a Bristol 29.9 with a roller furler. We're cutting the lines in a bit over four years and either heading across the Atlantic or aiming for the South Pacific - which one is still up for dreaming and debating. In between researching and working on our latest projects, I've been thinking about heavy weather sails.

For heavy weather conditions, we can either change the sail on the furler, use a Gale Sail, partially furl the headsail, or add a second forestay. Am I missing any alternatives? We could also, of course, remove the furler and switch to hank-on sails.

I realize that a very small amount of time is actually spent in heavy weather while out cruising. I just want to make sure that as we weigh the pros and cons of what's right for us, there isn't another option that I'm not thinking of.

Thanks.

We crossed the North Sea and the forestay on my 44 foot Colin Archer gaff cutter with a furler broke.


I didn't want a furler and now have all hasps and can sail anywhere at any time under any conditions.


It's just those 16- 24 foot swells aren't really fun.

[Chuck Hawley]

I think Ziggy just about nailed it with his posts. I have a few more thoughts:

1. Headsails with hanks are remarkably predictable. They go up and come down, and don't get blown over the side when you try to change them (if you use the right technique.)

1a. I don't know the number of actual incidents, but some of the things that can happen with a furling headsail in a blow are not pleasant, and can put the boat at risk.

2. In heavy weather, you want small, flat sails that have a high clew, and with a fine "entry". A partially furled headsail fails most of these desired characteristics.

3. While I really like ATN products, it seems like the Gale Sail results in a really big leading edge with drag and turbulence, and I cannot imagine it's easy to set at sea when you've waited too long. I suspect Etienne can do it, but he's pretty damned special.

4. If the Solent stay can't be removed, I would question how close to the headstay you want to put it. Or, putting it another way, you need to decide if you want to be able to tack your outer jib with the Solent stay in place. Too small a slot would prevent tacking without furling first.

5. Finally, I think preparing for bad weather is very logical, but I suspect many people fail to prepare for good weather and find they do not have large, light sails. A large furling genoa is not a great light air sail.

Cheers,

Chuck

(Full disclosure: I have a single furling 95% jib on my yawl, but it's very flat and I can always get rid of the main entirely...)

[Jim Cate]

4. If the Solent stay can't be removed, I would question how close to the headstay you want to put it. Or, putting it another way, you need to decide if you want to be able to tack your outer jib with the Solent stay in place. Too small a slot would prevent tacking without furling first.

My experience with our Solent jib is that even with a fairly large separation at the foot, tacking the Genoa without furling is impossible... even with someone on the foredeck trying to help it around the Solent. We have a furler on the Solent which makes it harder, but even with the original removable stay the Genoa did not tack unfurled. I find this to be a serious problem.

IMO, a "proper" inner forestay is a better strong wind choice. Runners are a nuisance, but if made from Dyneema and lead far enough aft to clear the boom they ain't too bad! If you set the head of the mainsail to be below the runners when the first reef is put in, then the runners can be set and then ignored in heavy wx, giving great mast support. And on many boats, having the storm foresail a bit further aft helps balance the boat, and makes heaving to easier.

As in all things boating, this choice involves compromise!

Jim

[UNCIVILIZED]

Some tips, & "new" thoughts on the topic:

There's nothing which says that the top of the stay for your "Staysail" has to be mounted in the "traditional" position, 2/3 of the way up the mast. As the sail wont much know the difference, if said stay's upper end is only 2' below your headstay. AKA in the Solent position.

That, & if you want to get trick, you can use one stay for both a Solent Stay, & for your Staysail. - As described in my 1st & 2nd posts on CF.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
There's a LOT of info in that thread, which should prove helpful, knock on wood. On various stay setups, use of different materials for them, & other items, etc.

And as an addendum to the linked thread, there are multiple ways for tensioning detachable stays;
~ Hyfield levers (bought, or made - by a rigger or DIY)
~ Use some Colligo Marine "Stackable Blocks" to add a bunch of purchase on the lower end, & lead the tail of the line back to the cabin top or cockpit, to tension it at your liesure (where it's dry & not so bouncy as the foredeck)
~ Use conventional blocks at the stay's lower end, with the tail led aft as above, & once tensioned, lock it off in a clutch/jammer. And it'd be wise to add an extra cover onto the line, given that you want it to be of bulletproof construction.
~ Purpose designed, albeit kind of pricey, stay adjusters. By Harken, Wichard, & a few others.

Regarding "Magazines", you might check with Carol Hasse & Co. at Port Townsend Sails, & also with their downstairs neighbor, Brion Toss Rigging.
Hasse invented an alternative to magazines too, & termed them Octupsses (if memory serves).
They're not as quick as Magazines, but do have some other definitive perks which Magazines don't.

Also, check with the San Francisco Singlehanded (Sailing) Society, for tips & info on short handing. http://sfbaysss.org/main/ Especially the part about doing jib changes.
There's a gent who's a member there, who's written a whole book full of tips on how to do things on boats your size (& much bigger) solo. Even to include changing jibs in headfoils, solo, in under 60sec. And a good portion of the book is downloadable for free. http://sfbaysss.org/main/resources/
It's author is also a member over on Sailing Anarchy Forums, & generally isn't hard to approach. I highly recommend his book, BTW.

And if you're either; the inquisitive sort, or the DIY type (or both), it might pay to pick up some books on rigging. Brion's comes to mind; the "old" one in print right now (or even more ancient variants), or the one slated to leave the printers here very soon.
I say this, as I have the "old" version, & amongst other things, it covers rig design. AKA, the pro's & con's of various different setups. Including adding a 2nd forestay - deciding on which sort to choose, how to put it on, other factors to consider, etc.. Plus lots of other invaluable stuff.


PS: To take Jim's thoughts on runners one step further. The further outboard which you can mount their deck level attachments the better. Like at the transom's corners, or to the toe rail. As, if you can get them setup in the right spot, then you don't much have to fiddle with them when going upwind... if your boat's wide enough anyway. As there will be enough room in between them so that you only need to slightly slacken & tighten them with each tack, but for the bits right up next to the spar impinging on the main.
And bare Spectra's a good way to go, given it's super low friction coefficient, so as to minimize chafe on the sail.