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Old 15-02-2019, 23:02   #46
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
Assuming you are going cruising I'd first start with ground tackle. A Rocna, Mantus or Ultra anchor a size bigger than they recommend. An all chain rode - say 300 feet. You will spend most of your time at anchor. Second, safety. Not everyone would agree on what you need and what you can afford, but I need/have a liferaft, an EPIRB, a satphone, harnesses, jacklines, personal AIS. Some things are for comfort. Where I sail fresh water is hard to find so I needed a watermaker. I do spend time in marinas in tropical climates so I needed air conditioner. Because I seldom need air conditioner at anchor I really didn't need a generator. But if you anchor out for extended periods you need energy generation - solar, wind or generator. For downwind cruising you need an offwind sail. Don't forget spares. I think cruisers often carry more than they really need as most places can get spares if you can wait awhile. However, I carry lots of engine/generator spares, a spare water pump and spares for anything that breaks and needs instant repair (fuses, lights etc.). Some are pure comfort - a dodger and a bimini. Don't forget a good dinghy and motor. The list goes on. For my latest boat, all told I spent almost 40% to outfit my boat for what is about a six month per year cruise.
Hanse (and I'm sure Jeanneau as well) offers some of this by just ticking the option boxes, so I think it should be possible to get a new boat that's ready to be actually sailed without having to do a lot of upgrades first. At least I hope so, because we're planning a maiden voyage of 500 nm in freezing water and potentially difficult wind conditions just a few days after our handover.

In this breakdown document of our final price (for our Hanse 388) you can see that roughly 1/3 of the price goes to the different options. The price includes about 20 k€ of "early-bird" discount on some option packages, so without that the options would occupy an even bigger share. (The full details of prices and other stuff here.)

What Hanse (at least) does NOT include but what we obviously need for our trip is all the safety stuff (everything in Zzmeyer's comment, flares, electronic + paper charts etc).

Whether to buy the boat as "bare" as possible and install the options yourself (assuming a lower total cost), or not, I think that depends a lot on how good you (or your preferred yard) is at doing it. Again, I hope things will evolve in a direction where the factory + commissioning yard is the best choice and the customer is mostly responsible for making good selections.
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Old 16-02-2019, 01:14   #47
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

That’s a useful list you show for the difference between base price and sailable price. But there is still a long way to go to make that into offshore condition.
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Old 16-02-2019, 05:04   #48
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Originally Posted by mglonnro View Post
Hanse (and I'm sure Jeanneau as well) offers some of this by just ticking the option boxes, so I think it should be possible to get a new boat that's ready to be actually sailed without having to do a lot of upgrades first. At least I hope so, because we're planning a maiden voyage of 500 nm in freezing water and potentially difficult wind conditions just a few days after our handover.

In this breakdown document of our final price (for our Hanse 388) you can see that roughly 1/3 of the price goes to the different options. The price includes about 20 k€ of "early-bird" discount on some option packages, so without that the options would occupy an even bigger share. (The full details of prices and other stuff here.)

What Hanse (at least) does NOT include but what we obviously need for our trip is all the safety stuff (everything in Zzmeyer's comment, flares, electronic + paper charts etc).

Whether to buy the boat as "bare" as possible and install the options yourself (assuming a lower total cost), or not, I think that depends a lot on how good you (or your preferred yard) is at doing it. Again, I hope things will evolve in a direction where the factory + commissioning yard is the best choice and the customer is mostly responsible for making good selections.

Really great post & blog, Mikael. Do you plan to take all 6/7 of you out sailing for extended durations?
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Old 16-02-2019, 06:26   #49
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

The manufacturers have extensive option lists. Some of the dealers have additional ones. The options will get you close. Sure wish you luck on a 500 mile difficult trip right after delivery. I'm assuming that is because your home port is quite a distance from your dealer. Will make all those glitches you'll find post commissioning a bit more of an issue to get taken care of. It took me more than a couple days to figure out how to use everything, let alone be ready for sea. If you have the offshore sailing experience, I wouldn't be overly concerned. As LF4 said. "Great blog"
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Old 16-02-2019, 21:06   #50
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Really great post & blog, Mikael. Do you plan to take all 6/7 of you out sailing for extended durations?
Thanks

No (serious) plans to cruise the world

We have about a month of summer vacation each year, so if we spend that time getting somewhere and back, I'll be overjoyed. A few years later on, if we all like it, we can skip the "getting back" part and maybe leave the boat somewhere to continue next year. (Thinking west coast of Norway here.)

Then again, I have no idea whether the children will like it or hate it, so if things turn out the other way, there will be less sailing

In any case, it will all be sailing where we won't be very far from the next marina.
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Old 16-02-2019, 22:05   #51
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
The manufacturers have extensive option lists. Some of the dealers have additional ones. The options will get you close. Sure wish you luck on a 500 mile difficult trip right after delivery. I'm assuming that is because your home port is quite a distance from your dealer. Will make all those glitches you'll find post commissioning a bit more of an issue to get taken care of. It took me more than a couple days to figure out how to use everything, let alone be ready for sea. If you have the offshore sailing experience, I wouldn't be overly concerned. As LF4 said. "Great blog"
Thank you, Zzmeyer. And I hear you about glitches and problems. As one measure of safety we've lowered the "no-go" bar somewhat, so we won't be heading out with an untested boat in too rough weather. We'll see how it goes and try our best to make good decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillsbury
That’s a useful list you show for the difference between base price and sailable price. But there is still a long way to go to make that into offshore condition.
Yes, agreed!

I took a stab at listing some of the additional things needed in this post over here. All the gear there amount to about 5 k€, so it's not that bad.

According to what our local insurers recognize, this won't get us to Finnish category 1 "offshore", though, but only to category 2 "coastal".

The structural components of the boat (including standing and running rigging) are certified as CE A, so it should technically pass as (Finnish) category 1 without any modification. I'm not sure whether it has enough handholds and lifeline padeyes to satisfy cat 1, but it will be interesting to know.

Further equipment needed:

- Storm sails: main and jib (instead of storm mainsail, adding a 3rd reef to the main might suffice)
- Second anchor with 60m chain or 10m chain + 70m other material (needed in cat 2 also with less chain, but forgot it from my blog post)
- Additional lifering
- EPIRB
- Two additional orange flares
- Additional manual bilge pump that can be operated from inside the boat

That's it. It will be interesting to see how this matches reality. And "offshore" in the Finnish requirements includes the waters around Europe, so we'll have to look elsewhere if ever continuing beyond that.
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Old 18-02-2019, 06:29   #52
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Go for Jeanneau, no doubt.
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Old 18-02-2019, 06:40   #53
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

My hometown is not far from Hanse on the Baltic Sea.
I have friends, saying every single boat coming back for complaints.
The company not paying well there employees.
I know loads of negative stories.

Same friends in the charterbusiness saying jeaneau is no problem at all.

I am sailing with my self build aluminium boat around the world since 20 years .So I am not a complete outsider....
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Old 18-02-2019, 06:56   #54
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I’m a Hanse 505 owner going on season 4, having looked at Jeanneau and Beneteau prior to purchase

I’ve found the Hanse to be a very robust platform, having logged about 11000 miles between Maine and the Bahamas since 2016.

The issues I’ve dealt with have been fairly addressed by my dealer, promptly. Every issue, by the way, was with an EU subcontractor-supplied product, probably much the same as you’d get on a French built boat.

The naval architecture is very well executed. Like any boat, she requires maintenance vigilance and prudent seamanship, and I’ve upgraded some hardware here and there.

The aesthetics work for me. I can live with the mass-produced interior, and some of the choices this builder made to be able to meet a price point. Just be aware of what these choices are and how to deal with them.

As to the myHanse forum, it’s a powerful resource for an owner. Lots of knowledgeable Hanse sailors there who’ve had most every problem you’re likely to run into, and are happy to help quickly. Several have years of experience with these boats and know what to look out for.

I would not hesitate to purchase another.

That said, find a great dealer and don’t be a jerk working with them.
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Old 18-02-2019, 07:01   #55
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Both are okay boats for their purpose - mainly day, coastal and weekend. A good number of Jeanneau also crossed the Atlantic - simply because of the manufacturing numbers vs Hanse and of corse the cost. Every boat can do blue ocean but the experience will not be the same in comparison to the upper two or so levels of cruisers - that also may cost twice and north...

Nevertheless, I would say the Jeanneau is probably a better buy. My Croatian broker friends also told me the same about the Hanse build quality, even when compared with Bavaria - it’s immediate competitor.

Best of luck!
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Old 18-02-2019, 07:01   #56
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Kitrob: We bought a new Jeanneau SO 440, the slightly larger version of the 410 you are considering. We love the sloping decks into the cockpit and the maneuverability on deck and below. The twin rudders, combined with the full length hull chine really give it nice performance and tracking. She's a lot lighter than our previous Jeanneau 47 Sun Kiss and picks up nicely in a light breeze, especially with the optional Code 0. We were one of the early production hulls, and with a new model there were some warranty issues, which are to be expected, but as others have pointed out, it's important to closely scrutinize your broker, as much as the brand, since you'll be leaning on them a lot. We looked closely at the Hanse line, but liked the new features of the Jeanneau 440. Good luck. If it helps you, I posted a video on our YouTube channel on tips for buying a new boat... https://youtu.be/UrrlyuEs6GU. We are sailing through the Med with her right now, and fitting her out for ocean passages, including solar... https://youtu.be/zh-u9giyP2A.
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Old 18-02-2019, 07:49   #57
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I'm curious about the use of this boat - Ktirop, you say coastal cruising with some Blue Water cruising to the Pacific Islands... Are you based in NZ?
I think the boats you've picked are great for coastal cruising, but perhaps not so great for the Blue Water stuff.
In the Caribbean I've seen lots of both boats - the Hanse's seem to have more troubles than the Jeanneaus (dropping masts, broken rigging) - though most of the Jenneaus we saw were a little bigger.
If you're in NZ, and planning some pretty big hops to the islands, I think I'd feel better in something a little more sturdy...
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Old 18-02-2019, 09:35   #58
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I have crossed the Atlantic in a Hanse and for me is a better choice. Keep in mind that the fullbatten Genoa is very good when you are short of crew
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Old 18-02-2019, 09:42   #59
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I'm partial to Hanse... if for no other reason than the fact that I grew up near Greifswald and have actually visited the shipyard just last summer. However, just for argument's sake, I can tell you that Made in Germany doesn't mean cost isn't valued over engineering. In fact, the entire top decks of their yachts get laid up and preassembled and pre-wired in nearby Poland due to labor cost pressures, then trucked to Greifswald and dropped on top of the hulls there. Not to mention that no boat gets shipped to its dealer with anything topside installed - wether or not your mast gets properly installed and rigged is Made by Dealer Country. In times of globalization there's no such thing as Made in Germany or Made in France anymore.
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Old 18-02-2019, 10:09   #60
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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... I feel German built is a safe bet. I’m on my third Mercedes and happy as a clam...
.

And I really love the 3 Fords I’ve owned, but that had no bearing on my “feelings” about why I chose my US built Beneteau 423. So let’s get real...

Notwithstanding the incredible adventures of many on this forum, taking their boats over thousands of miles of deep ocean visiting extraordinary places, that is not how the vast majority of production boats are used.

While many of us dream of “someday” taking our coastal cruisers to far off shores, we won’t. So my advice, pick a well equipped boat that you’d like to spend time living on for a day, a week, a month (if you’re lucky), which is likely all you’ll do and hopefully you’ll enjoy every minute of your time aboard.

And, I’d pick a boat with strong resale potential and easy access to spare parts, because over time stuff may break (though after 11 years of ownership I’ve had no failures of non-wear items) and popular boats may be easier to sell when the time comes.

Cheers!
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