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Old 12-02-2019, 16:44   #31
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Originally Posted by Alita49DS View Post
Which prompts me to suggest that on any boat over 40ft having a bow thruster is actually good news. Especially with a marina berth and cross winds. Other than having to replace the batteries I have never had a problem (tempting fate writing this) with mine as it is really just a simple electric motor.
The motor is simple, but there is a great big hole in your bow to deal with, plus issues of anodes and fouling. Bowthrusters arenít simple cheap devices.

I have to say I donít agree with your 40 foot rule. I used to have a 41 footer, back in the days when only 50+ footers needed bowthrusters. I was often accused of having a bowthruster, but in fact handling a boat even in Solent marinas and mooring fields is very simple when you get used to it. Of course, 41í felt big to me being used to 35-38 footers, but within a few weeks it was second nature.

Buying a 50í boat without a bowthruster I had originally budgeted for one very early on. Luckily for me finding someone who would be able to haul the boat out and do the job proved nearly impossible (at least anywhere near my home port). The boat felt enormous the first couple of days. But within a month of managing not to hit anything I now find no difficulty backing into slips, manoeuvring in tiny fishing docks with limited depth, mooring by industrial fuel docks never intended for sailing boats. You get used to what you have so quickly, especially if youíre prepared to be careful when appropriate and firm with the throttle when thatís whatís called for.

Iím not sure how much a bowthruster would cost for this boat. Probably of the order of $20k NZ, which is around the cost of a pair of nice new sails. I know which lím buying.

Iím sure itís a personal choice, but to me bowthrusters just arenít worth the money, as long as you know how to handle a boat at close quarters.
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Old 13-02-2019, 02:58   #32
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Iím sure itís a personal choice, but to me bowthrusters just arenít worth the money, as long as you know how to handle a boat at close quarters.
When we ordered our boat I was arguing with myself for and against a bowthruster. The actual usefulness aside, there were a few psychological reasons that eventually talked me into selecting one:

- Fear of missing out -- what if we don't order it (and it's terribly complicated to install later) and later notice we'd actually want one.
- Resale opportunities/value -- regardless of actual need, a lot of people may filter out boats without bowthrusters if they think they need one.
- Big boats have bowthrusters. I want mine to be a big boat

For most of my adult life I've heard the saying "if you need a bowthruster on a 70 ft yacht, you're not competent to sail it", and it annoys me.

I hope the future holds joystick steering, and the future after that stuff like autonomous docking. More technology instead of less technology to help me from making myself a fool when spectators are watching. Having bowthrusters more frequently than not might be a necessary step forward in that direction.

(Sorry for the diversion!)
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Old 13-02-2019, 07:25   #33
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

There was a time when no real sailor would have self tailing winches, refrigeration, or fresh water pressure. I raced offshore with a sawed off toothbrush to save weight. I now sail a 50 foot boat singlehanded a couple times a week and the added peace of mind of a bowthruster is a bonus. Having a bowthruster doesn’t make you less competent any more than carbon sails mean you are a good sailor. Get what you want and can afford.
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Old 13-02-2019, 08:02   #34
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I had not heard of the CE rating system before. Perhaps that is because I am living in the USA. It sure makes me feel good, if nothing else.

That being said, do European builders make all of their boats according to CE standards or do they build some boats to CE standards for Europe and Other boats for the standards of the USA?
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Old 13-02-2019, 08:26   #35
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

CE is a European small boat standard that was initiated in 1998. Because all boats sold there, whether built there or not, must comply; most manufacturers worldwide comply. For example Catalina yachts are CE certified. While I wouldn't read too much into it as virtually all boats have a CE certificate and not all boats are built the same I know of no boat builders currently building unseaworthy boats. One can argue which boats are best at sea, and some are built for various sea conditions. Just think carefully how you will really use the boat. Early I focused on how it was going to weather in heavy wind, and now I realize I spend 85% of my time on the hook and seldom go to weather. If you are a liveaboard certain layouts and amenities will be more important than for an offshore sail.
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Old 14-02-2019, 06:20   #36
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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I am looking to purchase one or other of the above two yachts. It would be used for coastal cruising with the possibility of some blue water cruising between the islands of the pacific.

My very general thoughts are these. Whilst the Jeanneau has more bells and whistles (which to me means more gadgetry to fail) has a sweeter interior layout and finish, has the much talked about full walkaround its big negative to me is its cabin stepped mast. Also, without putting too fine a point on it, it is French built rather than German built.

The Hanse on the hand has a more robust and no frills persona and has that added security of a keel stepped mast.



They will both be fine for 90% of cruising. However I wonder which of them is going to suffer first in extreme conditions.



I would really love to hear your comments on which you would prefer and without cost being a consideration.


Jeanneau and Beneteau are today the same with the same problems. In a way to reduce their cost, they use cheap materials inside that wear down quickly. The structure of their boat is also ďlimitĒ and will probably suffer in the conditions youíre intended to use it.

The other boat ďHanseĒ youíre considering, have a rudder post issue. The later, made of aluminum suffered from galvanic corrosion on the three boats I saw in the Caribbean. The other weakness is the fact that on recent units, they use a PC board as a main electrical panel and all fuses including the windlass are going through this panel located below the water line.

Nothing perfect today even if German builds!
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Old 14-02-2019, 07:27   #37
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Please explain your "use cheap material". Most of the interior of my boat is either wood or fiberglass or cushions. The systems are Yanmar, Spectra, B&G, Onan, Ultra, North, Dyeenma, Harken, etc. If you putter around the South Pacific you will find that the Beneteau is the most common boat out actually cruising. No boat, ex factory, is ready for sea. I dare say, most properly outfitted are great for what LF4 wants to do.
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Old 14-02-2019, 07:27   #38
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

I think that people should be very careful about writing what might simply be second hand prejudice.

The charter companies do not buy loads of mass market French and German boats because they are rubbish. They know that over any given span of time they will get a lot more use and abuse than they would receive at the hands of the average owner. They also work out the residual value.

All these boats are built to comply with the EU regs under the Recreational Craft Directive. Perhaps read that before rushing to judgement?

Perhaps also bear in mind that occasionally the so called upmarket kit also fails. There are many stories about Oyster yachts coming apart. Yet what does that mean taken against the whole sample?
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Old 14-02-2019, 12:24   #39
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

When going though the specs of the new boats I keep coming back to the Beneteau 41.1. It seems like a value for what it can offer a liverabord family of four that wants to cruise around the world and spend most of our time at anchor.

I do agree with you that many boats do not seem to come ready for this type of lifestyle. So, to your point, what does it take to get a boat from factory to properly outfitted? My first thought was a lack of fresh water storage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
Please explain your "use cheap material". Most of the interior of my boat is either wood or fiberglass or cushions. The systems are Yanmar, Spectra, B&G, Onan, Ultra, North, Dyeenma, Harken, etc. If you putter around the South Pacific you will find that the Beneteau is the most common boat out actually cruising. No boat, ex factory, is ready for sea. I dare say, most properly outfitted are great for what LF4 wants to do.
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Old 14-02-2019, 12:49   #40
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Assuming you are going cruising I'd first start with ground tackle. A Rocna, Mantus or Ultra anchor a size bigger than they recommend. An all chain rode - say 300 feet. You will spend most of your time at anchor. Second, safety. Not everyone would agree on what you need and what you can afford, but I need/have a liferaft, an EPIRB, a satphone, harnesses, jacklines, personal AIS. Some things are for comfort. Where I sail fresh water is hard to find so I needed a watermaker. I do spend time in marinas in tropical climates so I needed air conditioner. Because I seldom need air conditioner at anchor I really didn't need a generator. But if you anchor out for extended periods you need energy generation - solar, wind or generator. For downwind cruising you need an offwind sail. Don't forget spares. I think cruisers often carry more than they really need as most places can get spares if you can wait awhile. However, I carry lots of engine/generator spares, a spare water pump and spares for anything that breaks and needs instant repair (fuses, lights etc.). Some are pure comfort - a dodger and a bimini. Don't forget a good dinghy and motor. The list goes on. For my latest boat, all told I spent almost 40% to outfit my boat for what is about a six month per year cruise.
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Old 14-02-2019, 13:53   #41
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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The VOR-boats in the last race had deck stepped masts so it canīt be that bad.
Its also hard to understand how a 40% stronger mast can be cheaper to produce.
IIRC the VOR boats had above-decks struts supporting the mast in the area of the gooseneck. I believe this adds the support normally supplied by the partners in a keel stepped mast. Definitely not your production boat spar design.

And Toss didn't mean that the spar itself was less expensive, but that the overall cost of producing the boat with a deck stepped mast was less.

I'm not competent to evaluate that opinion, but he has pretty good credentials as an expert.

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Old 14-02-2019, 14:30   #42
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Oh please LF4, this is just getting silly. Look at the deck plan. You refer to storage. Where are you going to put the extra water? If you want more then either get a bigger boat or get a water maker. There is literally a limit to how many quarts you can get into a pint pot. Everything on a small boat is a compromise. If you cannot see that then go on a cruise.
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Old 15-02-2019, 03:01   #43
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

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Originally Posted by Alita49DS View Post
I think that people should be very careful about writing what might simply be second hand prejudice.

The charter companies do not buy loads of mass market French and German boats because they are rubbish. They know that over any given span of time they will get a lot more use and abuse than they would receive at the hands of the average owner. They also work out the residual value.

All these boats are built to comply with the EU regs under the Recreational Craft Directive. Perhaps read that before rushing to judgement?

Perhaps also bear in mind that occasionally the so called upmarket kit also fails. There are many stories about Oyster yachts coming apart. Yet what does that mean taken against the whole sample?


It is not my intention to strikes theses specific brand, but I just want to give my opinion about a specific question based on testimonials of owners I recently met on new ( less than 3 years) boats.

I am also not want to suggest that only these manufacturers cut in their quality, it is a trend and most of the other Who did not follow the tendency, recently close their door .

Does this mean that new Beneteau, Jeanneau, ... name it , will not survive ocean expedition? NO, but they will age faster in my opinion.

Cheap materials does not mean equipment from others manufacturers, but , for instance ,some manufacturers use kind of thin polyester film instead of Formica or wood over veneer and after less than a year, it start peeling on the edge .

Why are they doing this,The answer is To survive, boat manufacturing industry was not so profitable in the last few years.

The new owners want the biggest boat for with a lower price, there is more and more players on the market and charter companies are not profitable for boat makers.
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Old 15-02-2019, 07:17   #44
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

This is interesting, as I wonder what drives the cost. I would suppose that labor/design is the highest cost to the production of a boat.

With this in mind. Does anyone have a list of boat makers by quality/price/etc?

For example:

Entry Level/Budget
Lower Middle
Middle Market
Upper Middle
Luxury builders
Super Yahct


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northbound44 View Post
It is not my intention to strikes theses specific brand, but I just want to give my opinion about a specific question based on testimonials of owners I recently met on new ( less than 3 years) boats.

I am also not want to suggest that only these manufacturers cut in their quality, it is a trend and most of the other Who did not follow the tendency, recently close their door .

Does this mean that new Beneteau, Jeanneau, ... name it , will not survive ocean expedition? NO, but they will age faster in my opinion.

Cheap materials does not mean equipment from others manufacturers, but , for instance ,some manufacturers use kind of thin polyester film instead of Formica or wood over veneer and after less than a year, it start peeling on the edge .

Why are they doing this,The answer is To survive, boat manufacturing industry was not so profitable in the last few years.

The new owners want the biggest boat for with a lower price, there is more and more players on the market and charter companies are not profitable for boat makers.
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Old 15-02-2019, 07:34   #45
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Re: Hanse 418 or Jeanneau 410?

Hi Kitrob -we had ordered a new Beneteau 51.1 at the Annapolis boat show in Oct 2017, but the dealer/manufacturer had an 8 month delivery delay making it an unacceptable delivery date to Florida. We found a used Hanse 575 last May and have loved sailing it from Slovenia to Greece. -lan B worked out perfectly for us. Like you - I feel German built is a safe bet. Iím on my third Mercedes and happy as a clam. Iím sure either boat would give you tons of happy times on the water. The high hull adds a sense of security and the deep keel adds to more stability. The keel stepped mast brings water into the salon during heavy rains. Hanse has moved to a deck stepped mast on the new replacement 588. We love the light interior and the quality of the appliances and wood work. It is a bright, tall ceiling on the interior that now feels like home away from home. Good luck!
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