Guns on board. Yes/no

[Tetepare]

Wow. Six pages on this topic! OK, some was a rehash. And some, although posted in all seriousness, is quite entertaining.

If you don't have a gun on board, how are you going to shoot dolphins?

Yes, OP posted and left. But at least "GUN!" distracted most people sufficiently such that he was not ridiculed for wanting to circumnavigate Africa. Perhaps he had all the info he needed for his school project.

[softdown]

Doesn't seem like sailors with guns is much of a problem. Unlike pirates, murderers, and burglars with guns.

If we could shoot a gun that went ~6" deep and sent out an identifying signal to find the perp...that could be of use.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by softdown

While limitations are obvious, it seems like an interesting start to dealing with pirates. One of the myriad problems with guns is that almost everybody will be thoroughly outgunned. We badly need a decent defense against pirates.

Pirates are like crime and rape. The problem is poo-poo'd by those who have not been burglarized or raped. When it happens, it transforms ones life and outlook. Pirates have also been known to kill.

If enough smart people worked on a solution, a viable solution would likely arise. Aside from simply staying away. How does one avoid Africa while doing a circumnavigation?

I imagine a 4 to 5 metre length of rigid tube that would be ideal for fueling the tender when on the water. You could fit a detachable piezoelectric ignitor on the end and a pump and piezoelectric switch on the handle.

With a simple fuel pump setup we had the potential to supply 200psi at 800 litres per hour and some over the counter setups can run 2000psi.

So long as the ignition mechanism is stowed seperate to the refueling system it would be a reasonable thing to have on a boat.

I'm not going anywhere near trouble but if I were in that situation I would not let them on my boat at any cost.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Yes, OP posted and left.

I think the OP is a pirate himself doing a feasibility study.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by makobuilders

Setting aside the silliness of this troll-induced thread, I personally agree that there is little need for firearms on a normal basis during cruising in relatively peaceful destinations. However there certainly are situations where you may want one onboard for a particular leg.

I'll be facing the need to transfer my boat from the Persian Gulf, up through the Red Sea into the Med in about 4 or 5 years. Who knows what the piracy situation will be at that time, but if I make that trip I would most certainly acquire a firearm of any type, through whatever means necessary, during the passage. Probably just toss it into the water when entering the safety of Saudi Waters or the Canal itself.

Being a pacifist and loving thy neighbor won't save your arse if a skiff of aggressors approaches. There are numerous cases cited of just the display of firearms being enough deterrent to make the skiffs turn around. In any case, who wants to be a lamp chop when crossing a savannah full of lions???

Edit: Hmm, speaking of deterrent. Nothing wrong with carrying a plastic or wooden toy rifle around. Better than nothing that's for sure!

Not much better than nothing. If you don't fire to warn them away, or fire to start attritionizing them right off the bat, they know one of two things, Either:

1. You are hesitant to shoot and therefore you are easy pickings even if you are armed, or,

2. It's just a fake gun.

They will figure a yacht to be much less likely to have a properly armed and trained contingent aboard, than on a ship. They are obviously not smart but they are cunning and clever. On a ship if 3 or 4 obvious tough guys stand up from behind cover wearing kewl black boiler suits with
ARs hanging from tactical slings, and another guy with an M14 sporting a scope big as a piece of sewer pipe is in the prone position with sandbags and a smile on his face, no shots need be fired most of the time. Even then, the pirates will sometimes push a confrontation just to test. A guy going all John Wayne with what MIGHT be an M16? Not shooting? Fake, fake, fake. They will push him and see.

Either way, whether reluctant to shoot, or unable because your gun is made from a 2x6 or bought at toys r us, you are meat. You can't win. Even if you do shoot, you can at best only sorta win. You can survive, and surviving to go to prison is better than not surviving, but it will still suck, especially when you consider the fact that you could have avoided the whole mess by simply not GOING there.

The pirates are hip to the fake gun trick. A lot of bottom feeding shipping companies that won't shell out the bucks for professional help or weapons and training for the crew or are prevented by flag state laws from doing so, have told captains to construct dummies and carve fake guns out of old dunnage. They don't look real even from 300-400 yards out. Fake guns in the hands of live humans are a little better, but when nobody fires, or the pirates get in close enough to see behind the ruse, the game is up. U.S. flag ships are NOT prohibited by law from being armed, but the legal liability questions and often a lot of left leaning anti gun philosophy in easy chair shipping company xecs is preventing commercial ships from arming. Not to mention decidedly gun hostile foreign governments and port state authorities. The majority of American seamen are currently or have been Small Arms Qualified. It is pretty much required on Military Sealift Command vessels and most American seamen have spent time on MSC ships. Well, I digress. Anyway fake guns provide basically zero benefit. If they don't work for ships, they won't work for yachts.

Someone mentioned tossing guns overboard approaching Suez. This is actually often done even by professional security teams rather than deal with the hassle of clearing them in to Egypt. In the case of AR type weapons, one always separates upper and lower receivers and tosses them in widely separated locations so as not to provide another free gun to terrorists and pirates. I even have a video on my youtube of some M3s being tossed. Anyway I would urge anyone doing this to ensure that nobody could ever recover a whole or nearly whole weapon. Ever heard of trawlers?

Pirates probably wouldn't hesitate to take on a single armed defender. OTOH, if you have about 4 armed, trained, and determined individuals you may well beat off an attack or prevent it in the first place. They lose a couple of guys, they are gonna call it a day. They are not defending an ideology or a nation or philosophy, or fighting to the death against tyranny... they are simply engaging in their occupation and making continuous risk/benefit analyses as they go. The ex military guy who defended with a shotgun was actually kind of lucky as well as pretty well trained. Trained not just to fire accurately, but to fire immediately when required to do so and not stop until the danger was past. You don't learn that kind of aggression out of a book or off a youtube video. You just about have to get shot at a few times and learn the importance not only of shooting back but to sometimes shoot first. As for myself, I will cheerfully admit I have not reached that stage.

Just as important as having guns would be to have cover. Fiberglass wood or even thin steel is not cover. There is a difference between concealment and cover. Cover is something that will stop a bullet. Cover is what you shoot from behind, to shield as much of you as possible from enemy fire while you engage. Some 3/8 steel plate would do the trick, I think. Test it with an AKS or AK47 to be sure because all steel is not alike. At extremely close range it will probably penetrate most 3/8" though. 1/4" most mild steel alloys will not stand up to an ordinary AK round even at 100 yards. 1/2" is probably good outside 10 yards or so. Big difference in energy between 100 yards downrange and 5 or 10 yards downrange. If they have an RPG and just feel like wasting a round by totally destroying your boat for zero benefit, then all the steel you can carry won't be enough.

Convoy? That simply concentrates the defenseless victims in one convenient location. If there are no effective combatants in the flock, they are of no use at all. With a military escort vessel sailing in company, maybe its a viable option, but generally they DONT DO THAT. Exceptions exist.

If all this is too much for you, as it in fact is for me, then just don't go there. Ship the boat, let the insurance company worry about it.

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Pirates probably wouldn't hesitate to take on a single armed defender.

Of course, a single armed defender can easily take on any number of attackers - if he has the scriptwriter on his side.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jdege

Of course, a single armed defender can easily take on any number of attackers - if he has the scriptwriter on his side.

Even in real life, a single armed defender can easily take on any number of attackers.
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How long he will survive is another matter entirely.

[GrowleyMonster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1AMnvr_PWk

Dont know why I mentioned M3s in a previous post. I meant M4s. The M3 is the old "grease gun" .45 submachine gun which probably no modern security contractor would use in a ship security antipiracy scenario. Anyway here is some M4 carbines going over the side so the security guys don't have to deal with the Egyptians over them. We are on our way to the Suez Canal in this video.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You reckon..??

https://youtu.be/MU8h2s0LnNQ


https://youtu.be/8xm9dndA1-0

LoL Boatie.....that broke me up!

Darwin sure loves Australians!
Gives a few Awards every year [emoji1]

[JPA Cate]

]HEY, GUYS, DID YOU KNOW THERE IS A GUN GROUP HERE ON CF, REPORTEDLY HIDDEN UNDER THE COMMUNITY TAB, ABOUT MIDSCREEN???????? And rumor has it that it is about responsible gun handling on boats?

I still don't know how to get there! This is a bad thing, because I'm s'posed to be able to tell y'all how to do it! Just went and tried, but did not get there. Grump!

Ann

[Pizzazz]

I believe the lack of usefulness of (non-radar guided, non-stabilized) guns at sea was determined a while ago last century. Plus, I personally do not like guns. However, the torpedo idea is super interesting. Is it really that hard to make a hobby type, active guidance torpedo, lithium powered, with a limited range (say two nm). It may not even need explosive but just ram the targets. Are there any regulations against that?

I can imagine a torpedo rental service for yachts transiting troublesome areas. How do you prevent pirates renting from you is a different matter.

Thinking about it, there must be some law against this in the US, at least. It is a similar situation with drones.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Dont know why I mentioned M3s in a previous post. I meant M4s. The M3 is the old "grease gun" .45 submachine gun which probably no modern security contractor would use in a ship security antipiracy scenario. Anyway here is some M4 carbines going over the side so the security guys don't have to deal with the Egyptians over them. We are on our way to the Suez Canal in this video.

Interesting post which just goes to show how ridiculously far we have moved from the days when a proper gun safe sealed inside a bonded store room, satisfied Customs officials in Port.

A sailor's right to arm oneself against piracy on the high seas was never an issue until after 9/11 when fear overcame common sense.

Proper security training which I received in Israel from this organization makes a big difference in how to manage risks

http://www.securityacademy.com/

[Adelie]

The CF Gun Owner's Group: Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Gun owners

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Jdege

Of course, a single armed defender can easily take on any number of attackers - if he has the scriptwriter on his side.

Or if he is highly trained and experienced, and going up against attackers who are neither. But, most people aren't any more willing to get training in that than they are in diesel mechanics.

But, if you happen to have a background where you are already somewhat highly trained and experienced in firearms and combat, that is a world of difference from someone who buys one and puts it on his boat and plans on firing it for the first time when he defends himself.

Just like diesel mechanics. Just because one person can't rebuild one, doesn't mean another can't do it in his sleep.

I'm pretty sure I would make a mess out of a heart transplant operation. But, that doesn't mean no one else could pull it off.

But, buying a gun doesn't make you a gunfighter any more than buying a torque wrench makes you a mechanic, or buying a scalpel makes you a surgeon.

[goat]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Then there are the Euro countries. A "joke" was floated some years ago about a cruise to hunt pirates. I don't think it's financially viable, but in any event the Euro navies will board your buttand take your weapons. Now you have nothing.

Sounds like a good reason to be armed to me. ;^)

goat (apologies to all for continuing this train wreck thread)