Good alternative to Amel?

[warrior 90]

As I see it, it is precisely when the weather is its worst and sea conditions are risky that I will be ON the wheel, and NOT on autopilot. In those conditions, I would highly value the position the Amel wheel is in, rather than being exposed in a typical wheel position.

Being 8 feet behind a typical dodger in the typical wheel position of a typical boat still leaves the helmsman exposed to wind, rain, and spray. I know, because I have gotten soaked in a storm while at the helm.


Nice pictures to demonstrate the issues
I agree 100 %......and sooner or later this type of critical situation has to be expected. Weather is predictable but NOT 100 %

But even in better wind conditions continuosly it´s a lot more comfortable to be out of the elements and in normal clothing.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

As I see it, it is precisely when the weather is its worst and sea conditions are risky that I will be ON the wheel, and NOT on autopilot. In those conditions, I would highly value the position the Amel wheel is in, rather than being exposed in a typical wheel position.

Being 8 feet behind a typical dodger in the typical wheel position of a typical boat still leaves the helmsman exposed to wind, rain, and spray. I know, because I have gotten soaked in a storm while at the helm.


Nice pictures to demonstrate the issues
I agree 100 %......and sooner or later this type of critical situation has to be expected. Weather is predictable but NOT 100 %

But even in better wind conditions continuosly it´s a lot more comfortable to be out of the elements and in normal clothing.

That grows old quickly. When autopilots used to be a plastic thingy on the steering wheel or (gasp) tiller, they would break with the first gust but this class of boats have solid AP's that work very well during storms.

Bad weather and short-handed means it is tiring enough without having to hand-steer. We prep food, coffee, play some music, type some email/blog entries and sleep while the person on watch gets the drinks and food while being on the lookout and normally returns to the galley every hour for more coffee and snacks. How to do that with the other sleeping or otherwise occupied and having to hand-steer?

p.s. as long as we run a diesel engine and/or genset, the bigger the tank te better. Diesel can be kept good forever with polishing and some Startron. We can take 1,500 liters of diesel and 2,400 liters water. While underway we should only have 1,200 liters water as it's being used as ballast.

p.p.s. about gray water: we too have gravity drains throughout the boat. It ends up in a gray water tank inside the keel and is automatically pumped out by a Whale Gulper pump. This works great and is better than a pump or through-hull fitting at every sink etc.

[warrior 90]

I´m not the guy for hand steering tillers etc and auto pilot is a must have or short handed is a killer. Also I´m not shure if I want to leave up all situations to an auto pilot. At least I would be the guy who wants to be in the cockpit when I feel my heart beat rising...hahaha
Even with all the solar panels and wind gen comfort cruisers are energy hogs, lots of equipment to run daily. So enough fuel never hurts. Also hate the abusive fuel price policys of certain countries. The saved money is better invested in some good scotch whisky. The water is also a sensible story. Water desalonators are known for surprizes. I think it´s a good idear to dominate the technics and variables of those machines and not to rely on others. Don´t want to run out of water to realize how important it is. Can´t help it....need my hot shower. 2400 L is a lot of space and weight. I beleave with 1000 L and the water maker in top condition + spares it can be managed. If bad comes to worse, well no washing mashine etc and the shower faucet on 1/3rd should last 10-15 days easy.
Yeah continuos bad weather wears out.... so does no wind mixed with a lot of heat and humidity. Nice to have a fish bite once in a while.

Well back to the subject alternative to Amel....throw a bunch of money and design Your own boat.
Well, what´s on the can´t live with out / don´t want / must have lists for a long range cruising yacht and let´s see how much is covered by the Amel concept.
Now if I start with the I like list I found out it´s very easy to get lost in conflicts with the other 3 lists.
Let´s keep in mind we talkin about a production boat.
Here Amel says...NO options...we want to keep our price down. If You don´t like the colours of the cushions and the curtains go out and have them made to the colour of the napkins.
No big deal... I can live with that. I think I would even enjoy it.
No teak deck ?....hmm are there reasons for not wanting a teak deck ?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

p.p.s. about gray water: we too have gravity drains throughout the boat. It ends up in a gray water tank inside the keel and is automatically pumped out by a Whale Gulper pump. This works great and is better than a pump or through-hull fitting at every sink etc.

There seems no end to Dashew good design, pity so many good features and those of Amel are not copied by the mainstream boat builders and pity he has moved over to the Dark Side

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

As I see it, it is precisely when the weather is its worst and sea conditions are risky that I will be ON the wheel, and NOT on autopilot. In those conditions, I would highly value the position the Amel wheel is in, rather than being exposed in a typical wheel position.

Being 8 feet behind a typical dodger in the typical wheel position of a typical boat still leaves the helmsman exposed to wind, rain, and spray. I know, because I have gotten soaked in a storm while at the helm.


Nice pictures to demonstrate the issues
I agree 100 %......and sooner or later this type of critical situation has to be expected. Weather is predictable but NOT 100 %

But even in better wind conditions continuosly it´s a lot more comfortable to be out of the elements and in normal clothing.

What percentage of the time under way do you suppose you will be sailing in weather so bad that the autopilot can't handle it? Probably less than 1%, so it doesn't make sense to me to justify an odd position for the helm just to be more comfortable for that relatively short amount of time. I've been exposed to rain, wind and spray too, and I once even went for a couple of short swims across my cockpit so I am not under the illusion that it's always comfortable while offshore. Also, you don't need to have a bulkhead mounted, off center wheel in order to have a sheltered, comfortable, position from which to steer. I think that a bulkhead mounted helm is a fine for a motorboat or large ship that you drive while mostly level, and that's why most motorboats are designed that way, but Mr. Amel isn't the only sailboat designer who had some good ideas and pretty much every other sailboat designer throughout the whole history of sailing ships and yachts put the helm on the centerline and I presume that they all had their reasons too.

I see all choices for helm positioning as compromises, from tiller steering in a completely exposed position, to an aft cockpit boat with no dodger or bimini and one big wheel or two wheels port and starboard, to a center cockpit boat with an enclosure and a traditional wheel on centerline, to the bulkhead mounted helm position of the Amel, to a completely enclosed wheelhouse or bridge, and we all get to decide which is the best "fit" for the way we like to enjoy boating. That bulkhead mounted position would be fine for "driving" the boat under power like you would a big truck or a trawler, but IMHO it's less than ideal for the enjoyment of sailing and I put that at a high enough priority so, despite all the other things I love about Amel's, for that reason alone I wouldn't want to own one. But I understand that others feel differently and do think they are very fine boats, but just not for the way I like to enjoy boating.

[Eleuthera 2014]

Originally Posted by poiu

There seems no end to Dashew good design, pity so many good features and those of Amel are not copied by the mainstream boat builders and pity he has moved over to the Dark Side

If you look at the earliest Amels, they all had this feature. I think Steve Dashew saw a good thing and incorporated it to his designs.

Both men were/are long distance cruisers. If I had not bought an Amel, a Dashew design was on an equal footing.

[joemac4sail]

[QUOTE=warrior 90;1757544]As I see it, it is precisely when the weather is its worst and sea conditions are risky that I will be ON the wheel, and NOT on autopilot. In those conditions, I would highly value the position the Amel wheel is in, rather than being exposed in a typical wheel position.

Having sailed a Santorin and Super Maramu 2000 through some interesting weather fromm the North Sea Atlantic Scotland, Ireland and Biscay, I can vouch for the dryness of the Amel helm position.
with its skeg mounted rudder the autopilot is rarely under excessive pressure. When we lost our autopilot on a trip to France a few years ago, I steered our santorin back to Dublin with a bit of rope and bungee cord tied to the wheel and apart from a touch of the wheel once every 5 min or so, to bring it back onto course, that did for the voyage home even as the average weather for the trip home was Force 6 to 7.
Another advantage of the helm position, is the view of the Nav station below and the easy of conversing with who ever is at the nav table.
Joe

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE=jtsailjt;1757758]What percentage of the time under way do you suppose you will be sailing in weather so bad that the autopilot can't handle it? Probably less than 1%, so it doesn't make sense to me to justify an odd position for the helm just to be more comfortable for that relatively short amount of time.

I think that cockpit with the odd position is also very comfortable in all other weather conditions and at the dock.It integrates the helms position permanently in the living space and not away like in a traditional cockpit with the steering at center line at the END of the boat and the typical long oposed seating banks with a table in the middle. There might be a better positions in regards to performance but like mentioned while long range cruising there are also other values like for example an atmosphere that makes it comfortable for every one on board to be around the cockpit....kind of hard to explain. Best thing that comes to my mind is... compare the comunications at a 8 person dinner. There is a difference between a round table and a long square one. If the ones at both extremes want to comunicate the rest has to lower the voice.
Besides I have to question this typical performance lay out since 99% of the boats are never used for performance only sailing.
Usually it´s called ...let´s go sailing and spent some quality time on the water. There will be no crowded race crew jumping all over the decks to win a tropy.
The other typical case is the chartered 4 bedroom party cruiser. Here I would say sailing performance is the last word on the priorty list. Best proof is the allmost disapearing chart table and huge spaces for socializing and atending. First priorty is paying the bills. For the clients it´s eighter holidays in a hotel or living on a sailboat.....for the most no money for both.
One might ask what You need 2 full loaded helm station for under those requierements.....OK it looks atractive but how much sense does it make. They need a micro wave, lot´s of ice cubes,bath rooms and lot´s of space for towels and toilet paper.

Now what would be the priorty list on a long range cruising yacht ?
Of cause You can cross oceans with the other boats but the question is how and here is the difference.
Sorry for the extreme show cases...not to be amed in any dirrection but there are realities.
Unfortunatly the concept of Amel is widely miss understood. The electric sail handling was criticised at the time and recieved a lot of bad publicity by the tradicional sailing comunity.....well it opened up the posibilities for short handed crew and poeple with less physical capacity.
I think the worst hit was the false teak deck.
Well fact is teak decks requiere a lot of regular maintanance. Besides my personal opinion that the money and time is better spent with other things it might be difficult to do this maintanace while extensive cruising be cause it´s also very time consuming. It´s also a big ugly mess while living a board.
Fact is also leaking teak decks around the deck fittings do some serious damage.
Fact is also it´s very efective against slip, looks a lot better then a gel coat deck and is less sensitive to wear and most of all a lot better than a bad maintained teak deck like in so many cases.
OK,... it´s not a teak deck but associating that with terms like less quality, less value or low and high end category to me seems ignoring true facts and a big mistake by tradicional sailors.
Shure You can throw a bunch of money at it or sign up for slavery and You have this beautifull stunning teak deck but if that is the only way to create value I need a new education.
Well, I´m also not free from the traditional burdons.
Aircraft carriers with 5000 people on board are steered with a finger tip on a joy stick, while I still mess around with the most conveniant position of the the helm station....hahaha

[jtsailjt]

Warrior, you're preaching to the choir concerning everything else you've said about Amels except for the helm position. For example, I think the faux teak decks are a fabulous idea and I agree that real teak decks are beautiful but more trouble than they are worth. I also agree that the Amel cockpit is perfectly comfortable in all conditions, but so are lots of other cockpits. I never questioned the comfort of the Amel cockpit. But when you are offset to one side, you can't see down the other side of the boat and to adequately trim the sails I need to be able to see both sides, depending on which tack we are on. That's my ONLY quibble with Amel boats but to me it's a really big one because I enjoy being able to see and trim the sails and attempt to max perform them just because I think it's fun and a challenge I enjoy. I'm not talking about racing or having a racing crew jump all over the boat, just being able to see and trim the sails and I think that would be tough to do very well from a permanently offset helm position. To me, other boats that have some or many of the good qualities of an Amel, such as an Oyster or Moody or Tayana or Hylas or Deerfoot or Sundeer, etc. but with a traditional centerline helm position would be more fun to sail. And for me, even on a cruising boat, having fun sailing it is important.

[s/v Jedi]

Believe me, I was also right at the helm when squalls hit for the first couple of years with the Sundeer.

The thing is that it is a non-event every time. After a minute or so I just put the AP back on and a little later go back into the pilothouse. Now I just check for other traffic before the squall hits and put on the radar.

Don't forget that these boats can handle so much more with an apparent ease than most smaller boats. We have experienced the difference many times and in extreme cases have met boats underway that are in survival mode while we're having cocktails in de cockpit. This was a 50 footer with clipper bow that was more below water than above.

About water: we only take 1000 liters or so when underway (we have to make it with RO normally) but at anchor we like to catch rain water and will fill up the full 2,400 gallons tankage. Free water!

[barnakiel]

I actually love Amel's cockpits and the way the driver gets protected from sun, rain and wind. Very safe, very comfortable.

If you like Amels you may like older Oysters/Moodys, newer HRs or perhaps a Bestevaer, a Bougaivillea, a Kanter, a Dashew or that odd French thing called Alubat 58 (sort of like an Ovni ketch), or perhaps a Contest?

b.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

About water: we only take 1000 liters or so when underway (we have to make it with RO normally) but at anchor we like to catch rain water and will fill up the full 2,400 gallons tankage. Free water!

Wow, 2,400 gallons water tankage, that's really something!

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Believe me, I was also right at the helm when squalls hit for the first couple of years with the Sundeer.

The thing is that it is a non-event every time. After a minute or so I just put the AP back on and a little later go back into the pilothouse. Now I just check for other traffic before the squall hits and put on the radar.

Don't forget that these boats can handle so much more with an apparent ease than most smaller boats. We have experienced the difference many times and in extreme cases have met boats underway that are in survival mode while we're having cocktails in de cockpit. This was a 50 footer with clipper bow that was more below water than above.

About water: we only take 1000 liters or so when underway (we have to make it with RO normally) but at anchor we like to catch rain water and will fill up the full 2,400 gallons tankage. Free water!

Thanks for the animation. I like to share that attitude. Let´s have a drink and let the boat do what it´s made for.With modern tech and enough back up there is no reason for not taking situations a little more relaxed and a +50 feet boat is not the same than a 30 feet. My concerns are fueled by pure educated respect for the elements and simple lack of experience.
Your water tank is an advantage as far as depending on RO while with 1000 L there is still a risk when using water with out second thoughts. The proportions for a +50 feet boat are just to big....too much space and weight. Obviously the free bees are allways well come and there is nothing like pure rain water.

Back to the subject....thought I take a step back and review this thread as also lists with my personal idears be fore I write any further.
For that reason I checked all the boats here mentioned as an alternative on yachtworld .com to find out if there is something I am missing or could change my mind. As images form impresions I was surprized how fast my mind could change if I forget about my personal lists and let myself lead by the stunning looks. I also observed that it´s easy to spend some 2-300.000 $ on top of the price of a Super Maramu 2000 in good conditions wich I estimate 250-350.000$ wich leads me to a target around 600.000 if I go this way. I also checked with my lists. To start up I spent allmost the double and still don´t get my famous cockpit, helm and comfortable sized engine room with access away from the living space. I could not even find anything closer.The Alubat 58 has a steering wheel forward but I realised that it´s not the steering wheel position. No skeg and lot´s of other issues showed up. So what do I get for that extra 2-300 grant lot´s of high finish varnished wood decorated with lot´s of curved structures with decorative designer cushins and lot´s of other fine art little details in the saloon galley area and most some forward cabins and all the after cabins. When it comes to the heds the most apealing to me were the the prefabricated units with corian top like also in the galley. In short very atractive atmosphere. Well all that wood certainly costs a lot of money...lot´s of skills, labour intensive and espensive materials. but 300.000$....hmmm what do I buy and what value does it have and than I checked back with my list for the don´t likes of wood...well it says "WWW"...wood water work. Also thought what else 300.000$ can buy.
Well some 50-100.000$ more and I get an AMEL 54 +still some + 5000 for deceant decorative cushions...I get my engine room and cockpit with all the I likes associated and a lot of don´t likes disapeared again on my list.
Well than I thought why I all over sudden need to spent some 3-400.000 $ more. Why can´t I be a little more creative...after all I liked the interior of the Super Maramu a lot till now ...the closest to my perfect boat. Certainly I would like the 54 but not the effects on my budget. There is also lot´s of fine wood So what happened...well it won´t happen again....some corian tops and fabrics etc...that´s a piece of cake.
I leave the rest up to your imagination.
While I was looking at all them fotos today by accident I also saw this one that left quiete an impression in my mind.
Have a look
2008 AMEL 54 - Blue Water ketch Sail Boat For Sale -

That feels like comfort and home

Thanks for the pacience
One of those days may be I should start writing a book

[Eleuthera 2014]

I know this boat.

Big additions with hard dodger extension aft to include the base of the mizzen mast, solar panels, dinghy rollers on aft cabin, full canvas cockpit enclosure. The owner does 99% of his own maintenance including 5 coats of Coppercoat last year. He is NOT atypical of a large segment of Amel owners.

Interior might be original... if I remember correctly. Nice boat!

[Steadman Uhlich]

To Further the Discussion I respectfully submit the following, with the understanding that we all see things differently. By sharing these different views, we may learn or modify our own views of things.
______________

The mention of the unusual position of the Amel helm (slightly offset to port, on the forward bulkhead of the cockpit) keeps getting mentioned as one of the "odd" features of an Amel boat.

To this issue, I must say I consider this a matter of one's Point of View (POV).

Obviously the helm position is different from most sailboats that have a centerline pedestal helm in either an aft cockpit or center cockpit.

To some sailors it is so different that it appears unlikeable.

Some have remarked on the visibility and questioned its position based on issues of visibility during docking or sailing.

Again, I see this as a matter of a difference of Point of View.

From my Point of View, (my opinion) the helm seems to be in an optimal position for several reasons (some I mentioned earlier, such as being in a center-cockpit allows one a better view of the forward half of the boat).

One of the criticisms is that it is forward in the cockpit (not in the aft section of a cockpit like seen on most center cockpit boats). Another is that it is "off to the side" in the cockpit, rather than on the center line as is seen in most boats.

When I look at the Amel helm, I see it differently.

I see the helm is about 12 inches or 30 Centimeters to the port side of the cockpit or just about a foot or so off the centerline of the boat. To me, that is very good placement because it allows the seated helmsman to have a more clear view directly ahead of him, past the mast.

In fact, that "offset" seems like a better place rather than on the centerline, as it gives the helmsman a more direct and more clear view forward to the bow. I like that.

Looking at the helm position, I don't see this as being too far off the centerline. It is not like the helm is on the edge of the boat, it is just a few inches (12 or so) from the centerline.

I see that as analogous to the difference of seeing a movie from two seats that are side-by-side but near the center of the theatre. The view of the scene/screen is not that different from the two seats. But, having the seat that is not directly behind a tall person (the mast) gives one a more clear and direct view of the screen without having to tilt one's head to the side all the time.

_________________________

What about the position on the bulkhead, closer to the windscreen?

As I see it, because it is on the bulkhead, the view from the helm is MUCH closer to the dodger glass, which should give a much better view (more panoramic) through the glass than if the viewpoint/helm/wheel is further back from the dodger glass windscreen.

Why?
I liken that to the difference that one sees when one looks through a car windshield/windscreen from the driver's position steering wheel (close to the glass) versus the view from the back seat through the same line of sight (further from the glass the view is more restricted).

When looking through any opening (or window) it is better to have your eyes closer to the lens/window/port/glass in order to have a better view of the scene and wider angle of view.

What about viewing the sails above?
The Amel boats I have viewed, appear to have a clear view of the sails above the helm too (through clear overhead portlights in the hard dodger).

NOTE: The Amel boats are very similar in styling but there have been some changes and difference in the hard dodger and the helm seats over the years. I will post a few photos to show the offset seen in the 1997 SuperMaramu 2000 and the helm of a Amel 54 year 2006. Similar but a little different. Looking at several years/models, the helm "offset" appears to vary a bit from about 12" to about 16" or so (my eyeball guestimate).

Anyway, that is how I see it.

___________________