Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-02-2015, 15:27   #46
Registered User
 
Dr. Sea's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Annapolis/ BVI
Boat: Oyster 55
Posts: 194
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Thanks for the idea, Pete. I talked to Joel when I was in Ft. Lauderdale a couple of weeks ago, but our schedules didn't work for us to get together to look at anything. I'm still scouring the internet for Amels, Oysters, etc. The discussions on this thread have given me lots of good ideas, including your idea of going to the Amel factory. I'm afraid the price of the new Amels would make me just a window shopper.
__________________

__________________
Dr. Sea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2015, 15:40   #47
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Sea View Post
I am the OP of this discussion and I really appreciate the boat suggestions that people have made. Thanks also for the comments in favor of the forward steering position on the Amel. They have given me plenty to think about. I am much more comfortable as a helmsman or sail trimmer with the boat and sails in front of me rather than above me as on the Amel, but there are some important bad weather advantages to the Amel's steering position.

I already own a Beneteau 50, so let me explain the basis of my question. I love my Beneteau for Caribbean cruising. Its 4 cabins make it easy to take any combination of couples, singles, kids, etc. with us and its 16' beam makes it a spacious and comfortable boat to live in. But I plan to cruise the South Pacific and maybe circumnavigate. I'm confident that the Beneteau is fully capable of doing that safely, but I would have to add $50-60,000 worth of equipment to it for long distance voyaging, such as a watermaker, wind vane steering, solar panels, wind generator, sat phone, AIS, radar?, SSB?, spinnaker, storm jib, storm trysail, sea drogue, cockpit enclosure, etc. Is it better to do that with a boat that is really not designed for long ocean passages, or is it better to sell the Beneteau and buy a "blue water" boat? An Amel or an Oyster will cost quite a bit more than I will get for the Beneteau, but they might be better investments in the long run. They will have some of that equipment already and might be more sea kindly boats than the Beneteau, although a 53 foot Amel is not as spacious as my 50 foot Beneteau.
In my opinion, you are thinking in the right direction, except that bit about "investment", which made me chuckle. No boat is an "investment" -- they are all holes in the water you throw money into. The more expensive the boat is, the more money you will lose on it -- that's really about the only valid rule of thumb. So for God's sakes don't buy one on borrowed money. But if you can afford it, there's nothing more joyously satisfying to spend money on, apart from, perhaps, a young mistress.

I've got nothing at all against the B50, and as you said, you can certainly go anywhere in it. But if I were you, and I had a chance to upgrade to something like an Amel, and I planned to be on board for tens of thousands of miles and years of my life, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The Amel is perfect for this -- this is exactly the purpose it was designed for. But there are plenty of other quality boats which would do, each with its own advantages and disadvantages -- Contest, Oyster, Discovery, Hallberg-Rassy, Malo . . . there are others. I sail a Moody, and these are also worth looking at, but the yard went defunct in something like 2008, so they are only available on the used market.

Concerning the sheltered steering -- or at least, watchkeeping position -- my opinions are slanted by the area where I sail -- English Channel, North Sea, Baltic, where we get a lot of strong weather, strong wind, horizontal rain, etc. I might feel differently if I sailed in the tropics. But I think the sheltered watchkeeping position, if not a pilothouse, is a key attribute. The Amel gets top marks there; the Swedish boats mostly have lovely fixed safety glass windshields and some of them have hard dodgers. Moodys have fixed windshields and deep overhanging sprayhoods -- not bad, but not as good as the HR's and Malos. Others -- Discovery, Oyster -- offer less shelter. For serious tens of thousands of miles of passage-making, I think, frankly, a real pilothouse is the best thing of all, especially if you are going up into any higher latitudes at all. It's a shame that so few boats are made with them. The Amel is the next best thing, however.

Good luck.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2015, 16:30   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: East Greenwich, Rhode Island
Boat: Freedom 44 Cat Ketch
Posts: 6
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

The price of the new Amels is high, and Joel will be your best bet for finding one here in the USA, but at the factory they are just as happy to show you the building process and tell you all about the boats. In addition you will have a wonderful time in France, something that she-who-must-be-obeyed will like. Have fun.
__________________
pshaydon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2015, 18:22   #49
Registered User
 
Dr. Sea's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Annapolis/ BVI
Boat: Oyster 55
Posts: 194
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In my opinion, you are thinking in the right direction, except that bit about "investment", which made me chuckle. No boat is an "investment" -- they are all holes in the water you throw money into. The more expensive the boat is, the more money you will lose on it -- that's really about the only valid rule of thumb. So for God's sakes don't buy one on borrowed money. But if you can afford it, there's nothing more joyously satisfying to spend money on, apart from, perhaps, a young mistress.
You are right about boats being holes in the water that you throw money into. I used the word "investment" in a very loose sense. Maybe a better word would be "recovery" or "money salvage."
__________________
Dr. Sea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2015, 22:35   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Itīs the sheltered cockpit together with the position of the helm that makes the Amel concept unique. It is the best choice in my opinion to all weather conditions. Since weather conditions are not 100% predictable itīs a lot of freedom to have a deceant shelter and I think thatīs valid no matter in what climate zone You have to take a hit.
Thxs at that point to SV Elyse and a little video on there web sight.
Video - S.V. Elyse
Very realistic and good inspiration. I think every one should have a look before buying a boat...It would also be an inspiration about sailing romantics to many designers.
They donīt seem to have a problem with that helms position in a pilot house while they never incorporated this point of few on what they call long range off shore cruisers. Lotīs of times I beleave they have never been out there for an extended period in bad weather to apreciate that feature. I can understand that for racing. The helm at the end is a lot more practical, better control of trimming and activity but when You cruise speed is not of that importance anymore but they still design boats with pure racing atributes and call them comfortable in spite there are other choices. While cruising tacking is kept to a minimum. Lotīs of electrical, hydraulic trimming devices, the roller furling ...great progress...all features to get more comfort but modern designs are even worse. Latest comfortable cruising designs trends all include double helm and wide open decks....nothing to hide besides a primitive dodger. No matter how good the wet cloths.... canīt imagine this to be a lot of fun being exposed in bad weather. I also canīt see my crew being very inspiered to give me some company Back Up There.
To compare it with cars.. Who drives in an open convertible, while itīs raining or cold ? On the other side itīs a dream feeling the air and sun on Your skin when the weather is good.
When it comes to performance I would say this depends more on other factors than on position of helmstation.
Conclusion for me. there are not a lot of mono hull designs for pure cruising out there with the exception of Amel where I can see a clear concept. Compared itīs the closest to my idear of the perfect boat I could find till now. Everything else is a big compromise on the wrong side.
To make it perfect I add on: a big desalinator +100 l/h and here may be the 7,5 Kohler is required to keep generator time as low as posible.
The only thing I would wish for on a +50 feet Amel is a center line double bed in the after cabin like the newer designs to be able to get in and out from both sides and the chart table in forward position for more comfort in rough sea even so itīs better for comunicating with the helm.
Well there is no perfect boat but if those are the only compromises

I can live with that.

May be a higher interior material standard compared to other boats in that range would be desirable for example like in the Contest.but here it remains to be seen how practical that is for permanent live aboard asuming it also needs some work to keep things in shape.

Costs.... there is a lot of equipment a board an Amel but not a lot more than on other comparable boats. The quality standards are outstanding. Further more the concepts and basics have proven the value in more than 1000 boats.
The rest is a question of proper maintanance and how much one is willing to do himself.
Love the engine room

Value ? having a boat was never cheap but as long as people with experience in cruising have a dream I guess a good concept allways keeps the value.
At the end itīs also suposed to be home while at achor or dock.

The only real negative for me is the deep draft.....less access to shallow waters.
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 06:28   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Port Orchard WA
Boat: GB Alaskan 49
Posts: 125
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Out of curiosity, are there any boats in the Amel line that are undesirable? I understand that some are more desirable than others, but has Amel built a boat that's best avoided? While I would love to have a Super Maramu 2000, I'm not sure one will ever be in the budget. Which leaves me looking at the Sharki/Maramu/Santorin boats.
__________________
blinkerfluid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 08:32   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Boat: Amel Super Maramu 53 ft
Posts: 504
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

No bad ones really... The Maramu is older and sports a fairly traditional hull line. The Santorin followed and is more up to date...

Henri Amel had poor eyesight so his boats followed a pattern. He could move from early boats to his latest creation and find the related controls in the same area. He also did a RTW in each one of his new boats as they were delivered.... to prove to himself the validity of the design and its systems.

He was dead against changes to please particular customers. For instance, he had an early Maramu owner who had a dual 90 degree gearbox failure within months of taking delivery of the boat. (The gearbox casing was aluminium and was not man enough for the job.. Amel changed the design and retrofitted all early boats) Even after the gearbox was changed the SM owner kept complaining as he wanted to have a larger aft cabin bed. Amel went to see the client personally and after discussions, bought the boat back. The second owner received a 1 yo boat with 70 hours on the meters and yet... the furlers had never been used.

I am the third owner of this boat :-)
__________________
Eleuthera 2014 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 08:41   #53
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleuthera 2014 View Post
No bad ones really... The Maramu is older and sports a fairly traditional hull line. The Santorin followed and is more up to date...

Henri Amel had poor eyesight so his boats followed a pattern. He could move from early boats to his latest creation and find the related controls in the same area. He also did a RTW in each one of his new boats as they were delivered.... to prove to himself the validity of the design and its systems.

He was dead against changes to please particular customers. For instance, he had an early Maramu owner who had a dual 90 degree gearbox failure within months of taking delivery of the boat. (The gearbox casing was aluminium and was not man enough for the job.. Amel changed the design and retrofitted all early boats) Even after the gearbox was changed the SM owner kept complaining as he wanted to have a larger aft cabin bed. Amel went to see the client personally and after discussions, bought the boat back. The second owner received a 1 yo boat with 70 hours on the meters and yet... the furlers had never been used.

I am the third owner of this boat :-)
Amel's poor eyesight was the result of war wounds which he received fighting the Nazis in the French Resistance. He was apparently an amazing character.


One thing anyone considering an Amel should consider carefully are the -- ahh -- aesthetic aspects. The appearance of Amel boats may also be related to Henri Amel's eyesight . Doesn't bother everyone, of course, but for some this is a real obstacle.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 08:43   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 37
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

I'd stay with the Benni as well. I believe you would be surprised at how much money you'd still need to put into another boat for offshore both in purchase and outfitting .
Besides.... The Benni is a great performer


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Mike R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 08:56   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Boat: Amel Super Maramu 53 ft
Posts: 504
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Amel's poor eyesight was the result of war wounds which he received fighting the Nazis in the French Resistance. He was apparently an amazing character.


One thing anyone considering an Amel should consider carefully are the -- ahh -- aesthetic aspects. The appearance of Amel boats may also be related to Henri Amel's eyesight . Doesn't bother everyone, of course, but for some this is a real obstacle.

:-) You are right. On Eleuthera, I've upgraded the looks and the interior. It is a work in progress and I will post pics when done. It will receive a big boost in the modernity department.

For DR SEA

If you come to Europe, the largest base for Amels, send me a PM, I can put you in contact with the 3 most knowledgeable brokers on the East side of the pond. I know each of them personally.
__________________
Eleuthera 2014 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 09:10   #56
Registered User
 
westsail374's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Boat: Looking...
Posts: 318
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Consider the Nauticat 525 - quality second to none. Offers pilothouse for truly protected steering station as well as a midship cockpit with outside steering.

The ultimate ocean cruising experience, the new Nauticat 525 was launched in spring 2010 and she is an exciting addition to our range of pilothouse sailing yachts. The new 525 incorporates the best traditions of Nauticat’s ocean going capability together with the ultimate in luxury.
The Nauticat 525 is the largest in our range with the emphasis put on designing a yacht suitable for advanced world-wide cruising.
In order to create the new Nauticat 525 we have used our experience of building over 100 Nauticats in the 50 foot range, together with the encouragement and knowledge of our existing owners,. These ideas have been developed to build a yacht with the ultimate in safe stylish luxury that can be used to extensive cruising in full comfort. The new 525 includes many new features but still includes those qualities that made the earlier 521 and 515 so successful.
The clean hull lines, powerful rig and new design of the lead keel make the Nauticat 525 perform superbly as an effortless passage maker. The new Nauticat 525 features modern deck styling but still keeps her classic looks and for ease of handling she is, as standard, rigged as a ketch which gives many possibilities to suit all wave and wind conditions.
The cockpit layout is designed for comfortable and safe handling of the boat, and the helmsman’s seat is positioned on the portside, giving the helmsman a tranquil and efficient position for manoeuvring his yacht. The cockpit also has good seating to allow up to 9 people to sit in full comfort.
The interiors are built to the highest Nauticat standards that have been developed continuously for more than four decades. You will see a design philosophy that uses the highest levels of craftsmanship but also includes the choice of the best possible equipment to create comfort and safety both at sea and in harbour. As each 525 is semi custom built there is a wide choice of layouts together with a selected specification carefully tailored to the individual owners requirements.
The engine on the 525 is a powerful Perkins M150 TI diesel developing 150 hp which under power alone allows a cruising speed of nine knots. This gives the 525 a cruising range under engine alone of approximately 1500 nautical miles.
__________________
westsail374 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 09:35   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Updating your current Benni would probably be the best value, unless you just want a different boat.

Every boat transaction costs you, and that's just lost money.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 10:13   #58
Registered User
 
Dr. Sea's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Annapolis/ BVI
Boat: Oyster 55
Posts: 194
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Updating your current Benni would probably be the best value, unless you just want a different boat.

Every boat transaction costs you, and that's just lost money.
That's certainly an important reason to stay with my Beneteau. That was my plan from the start until I started reading about Ovni's and Garcia's with shallow draft and centerboards. My Beneteau draws nearly 7 feet, and loaded for long passages it will probably draw 7. For cruising Bahamas and Tuomotus, a variable draft boat would be wonderful. But then I looked at a Garcia and that changed my mind about these boats. I just didn't like it. Most of the well known blue water boats draw 6-7 feet, so I just decided to stay out of the Bahamas and Tuomotus and visit them by puddle hopper plane.

That's when I got interested in the Amels. They usually have most of the equipment that I would add to my boat, and you pay less for nice options on cars and boats than the same options would cost to add to a brand new vehicle. But on boats, some of these options, especially electronics, go obsolete pretty fast, and by adding them to my Beneteau, they would all be new and would be carefully chosen to meet my needs (or what I think my needs will be.) One important question would be whether I would recover any of these costs when I eventually sell the Beneteau, or would I basically just have to give them away for nearly nothing to the next owner. Would that "expense recovery" be better if I added what I needed to an Amel or Oyster type boat than if I add them to my Bene?
__________________
Dr. Sea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2015, 10:57   #59
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Sea View Post
That's certainly an important reason to stay with my Beneteau. That was my plan from the start until I started reading about Ovni's and Garcia's with shallow draft and centerboards. My Beneteau draws nearly 7 feet, and loaded for long passages it will probably draw 7. For cruising Bahamas and Tuomotus, a variable draft boat would be wonderful. But then I looked at a Garcia and that changed my mind about these boats. I just didn't like it. Most of the well known blue water boats draw 6-7 feet, so I just decided to stay out of the Bahamas and Tuomotus and visit them by puddle hopper plane.

That's when I got interested in the Amels. They usually have most of the equipment that I would add to my boat, and you pay less for nice options on cars and boats than the same options would cost to add to a brand new vehicle. But on boats, some of these options, especially electronics, go obsolete pretty fast, and by adding them to my Beneteau, they would all be new and would be carefully chosen to meet my needs (or what I think my needs will be.) One important question would be whether I would recover any of these costs when I eventually sell the Beneteau, or would I basically just have to give them away for nearly nothing to the next owner. Would that "expense recovery" be better if I added what I needed to an Amel or Oyster type boat than if I add them to my Bene?
An interesting question, which is probably impossible to answer precisely. But in my opinion, whatever money you spend on a boat is blown -- gone. You never get it back.

When you buy what you call an "Oyster-type boat", you will have very large expense of upkeep and constant upgrades -- these are very complex machines. The boat itself might kind of hold its value, but this money is blown.

If you upgrade your Bene, that money is also effectively blown. You might get some credit when you resell, but will be a small fraction of the cost.

So I probably wouldn't worry about this -- buy what you like and can afford.

Incidentally, used Amel Super Maramus are, in my opinion, outstanding value for the money, costing less than "Oyster-type boats" and being usually better equipped. You really couldn't do better, thinking practically, for a pure cruising machine.

I looked at Amels when I was buying my boat six years ago. I was down to Amels and Oysters, in fact. The Amels turned me off with their quirky layouts, horrible plastic decks, and general ugliness. They seemed much less like yachts than floating caravans to me, at the time. I couldn't resist the sex appeal of the Holman & Pye designed Oysters, low, lean, utterly gorgeous, and made for sailing.

Now 15,000 miles or so later, I have a different perspective, and I would probably look harder at the Amels, the many virtues of which I was just not capable of understanding prior to all the ocean experience I've accrued in the last six years.

Funnily enough, I didn't buy any of the Oysters in the end, either, although I had a contract on one and tried hard to close. I couldn't find one in acceptable condition -- they had all been used hard and badly maintained. The surveys read like horror movie scripts.

I bought my boat, a Moody 54, on the rebound, not really liking her all that much at first, but needing to buy a boat and falling in love with her wonderful condition (at the time; maybe not now ) after all the beat-up Oysters.

She has really grown on me in the meantime. She's not as pretty as the H&P boats, but nevertheless quite striking from some angles, and with an excellent layout below. Immensely strongly built and a great sailing machine with a superb rig (8 cockpit winches!). But I find myself wishing for some of the features the Amels have -- like that sheltered steering position.

Choosing a boat is hard -- good luck with it. There are millions of tradeoffs and you have to work hard to strike just the right balance. Have a look at HR's and Contests while you're in the market; don't settle on any one brand too early.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2015, 16:34   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,960
Re: Good alternative to Amel?

I know exactly what Dockhead means as far as appearance etc. but when you start cruising full time 24/7/360 you begin to be less into appearance and heavy into the practicle side. The Amel is not a pretty boat but it is very practicle and for full time cruisers practicle wins every time UNLESS you have tons of money in your jeans.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Amel Euros 41 Project Boat Little Otter Monohull Sailboats 7 23-06-2010 14:36
For Sale: Amel Super Maramu - Central Florida amelforsale Classifieds Archive 2 06-11-2009 05:03
The Amel 41 Cherp Monohull Sailboats 0 23-02-2009 19:10
Looking for a Amel 53 2002 to 2005. videorov Classifieds Archive 0 03-06-2008 20:21
Amel 41 for sale Charlie Classifieds Archive 0 11-01-2008 11:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.