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Old 18-12-2006, 11:15   #16
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This is one of those discussions that could never be resolved. Their are just as many opinions as there are boats.
Firstly, when you talk about Fibreglass, that in itself is varied and huge in types. Resins can be two types of esters, many different formulae of Epoxies, glass, kevlar, carbon, mixtures of all three, dynel, then there are the core materials or solid and so on and so on.
Aluminium is one of the most expensive materials available. The only cost saving to be made is that often the hull can be left unpainted. That's a big saving in cost. It's light and easy to work with. That's a saving in cost.
But you also need to put into perspective, resale cost also comes down to the boat type and design, not just the material. So the only way you could really judge those factors is to have three or four identical hulls each of a different material, each of the same age and finish quality and then see what they go for on the market. I doubt there would be a great deal of difference.
Also as Paul stated above. That NZ site is waaay out of date. Two years ago, our dollar would have been in the basment digging holes. It is now upto almost 70c to the US$. It is getting to the point where building in Nz is not cheap anymore. And even though we make the Alloy here in NZ for both us and Oz, (Oz has there smelter here in Nz for cheap power) Aluminium is damn expensive, especially Marine grade stuff.
Oh and marine grade is very stiff and does not like to bend. Try bending it tight and it will facture and break in two. The alloy those little boats are made from, especially the really old ones, is not marine grade and is very thin. It will bend and dent.
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Old 18-12-2006, 11:42   #17
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There was an aluminium power cat anchored in Baltimore harbor. It was not painted and was finished with circles (maybe 18 inches) polished into it (not sure what that is called). They were reguarly spaced like a grid pattern. It was an interesting look, though not one I would have chosen.
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Old 18-12-2006, 14:56   #18
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I don't hate glass boats at all. I was looking into buying a boat and doing it on the cheap (who isn't) when I noticed that when I searched for metal boats in yacht world I got far fewer results in the US than I did in Europe. I also stumbled across that sight that Pblais just made a quick meal of. I wasn't using it as an argument in favor of metal boats I was just bringing it up as an interesting resourse, and if it was not found to be that, then at least a cool sales pitch. Maybe I should have made the title of this thread "Why, when I shop for boats online, do I find so few metal boats in America?", not "why do American's hate metal boats?"

Actually better yet, "Why is it so damned hard for me to find a cheep awsome boat? Don't they just give these things away?"

That's got a nice ring to it. Anyone on this forum got a cheep, awsome boat they want to sell to me? (no metal please, I'm an American)
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Old 18-12-2006, 15:11   #19
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"Why is it that American's hate metal sailboats?"
What, like you and Mr. Gallup got together and conducted a poll to jump to that assumption?

The bottom line is that there are very few boats built for the sport sail market in the US every year, something like 3-4000 and half of those are 20-odd feet or less. (Ballpark numbers.)

Building MOLDED boats is cheaper than building one-off metal boats, so that's what gets built, and that's what gets sold, and that's what's on the market, new or used.

You want a metal boat? Peterson and others build and sold them, probably still do. Just remember, we all hate metal boats and if you buy one, we're going to throw eggs at you and run you out of the marina. From jealousy.<G>
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Old 18-12-2006, 15:15   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"Why is it that American's hate metal sailboats?"
What, like you and Mr. Gallup got together and conducted a poll to jump to that assumption?
<G>
Please read above post before responding.
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Old 18-12-2006, 15:22   #21
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Quote:
Actually better yet, "Why is it so damned hard for me to find a cheep awsome boat? Don't they just give these things away?"
Well why didn't you say so right up front. If you like you can send in all your money and we will have it delivered .

Seriously, A great place to go with all this is to play a while on YachtWorld.Com. Use the search tool to Look at boats in different ways. You can fill in all or just some of the search parameters and see what you get. All the brokerage listings are pretty much there or at least a whole lot.

Given they are asking prices don't get too hung up on exact prices. Just look at boats in your price range. Look at boats just beyond your price range too maybe less as well. Get a feel where your money will take you. If you search on a particular price range and find only a very few boats meet the criteria you desire it probably means you are shooting at the low end of the price range for the types of boats you are searching for and you may be looking at project boats requiring a lot of work.

if you look at boats on line long enough you'll learn you need to go out and see some in person too. Just looking and reading will give you a feel for what the boat market really is all about and what kind of money you need. Then you can start getting into costs of ownership and maintenance / repairs and you'll be really broke like a lot of us.

There just are a lot of boats out there in more shapes and sizes than you can imagine. There could be one that works for you, but it may not be your first choice right now. You may need to adjust expectations a little to just get a boat that works for your budget and lets you get out there. But in the end it is mostly about getting out there and doing it. However it has to be to work for you.
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Old 18-12-2006, 15:46   #22
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I lived in the USA for ten years, and my view is that boat maufacturers in the USA have larger production runs which suit fiberglass, so they are cheaper.
Also I think Americans in general like to follow a trend. In Australia and Europe I have found a higher percentage of boat people like to be a little different than others and custom build. Aluminium is the easiest material to custom build.
Also I do not know why but Aluminium is much cheaper than fiberglass, in Australia. It may be because we import our fiberglass products but manufacture our own aluminium.
I have had boats built of both, and the need for insulation is essential, but I know which boat would survive a grounding on the reef better, and it would not be the fiberglass boat particularly one built from foam sandwich.
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Old 18-12-2006, 16:24   #23
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Pblais, thanks for putting into words what I could not. That is very informative. I have been researching a ton of different kinds of boats and have decided I want something really seaworthy. I know a lot of time people talk about glass boats from the 60's being way overbuilt, or at least their hulls. This apeals to me a bit but then of course you are dealing with older boats so more work. As you have been so gracious to point out there really is no generalizing this stuff. It is all about finding the right boat for myself. I know thatt saying is a platitude, but enough emphasis cannot be put on the word right.
Also Beau, that is interesting about fiberglass being more expensive over there. Funny I never thought the price of fiberglass would be playing such big roll in my life.
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Old 18-12-2006, 17:26   #24
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Quote:
I know a lot of time people talk about glass boats from the 60's being way overbuilt, or at least their hulls. This apeals to me a bit but then of course you are dealing with older boats so more work.
You answer your questions well enough. When you look at things too narrow you fail to see that on the one hand it's a single advantage but there is always another side. Overbuilt really isn't better. Being older than 40 years is far worse than being over built. You need to think total package. The little stuff attached to the boat can cost more than the hull.

As far as the cost of the fibreglass, it really does not effect what you need to think about now.

Quote:
I have been researching a ton of different kinds of boats and have decided I want something really seaworthy.
You might want to look a little deeper. Seaworthy is sort of like saying you want a "good boat". It's not helping your search even if it is a quality to desire. Looking at the other way why would anyone not want a seaworty boat? Define all the details of what sea worthy means and you can start to understand the word.

It's more the last questuion you ask yourself after you have evaluated perhaps a 100 or more different qualities and attributes you can actually measure on multiple boats that you then lay side by side. You can then choose the best boat for yourself and your budget. Sorry, but it won't be the best possible boat. It has never been built and you can't afford it.

I really think it's a question that is more about you devloping your boat sense than it is about the boat you seek. At this point you could not recognize it. Understanding the technologies and the skills of sailing make the process of selection far easier. Devleoping your own knowledge, experience, and skills means you just might be able to sail this boat once you got it. All this helps you pick the boat. Your success is more about how perfect you become rather than how perfect the boat is to begin with. You might actually make the boat better than it was but you'll need to know how.
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Old 18-12-2006, 17:28   #25
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When you get paid in Euro's, comodities priced in DOLLARS on the world exchange are cheap because our curency is continuing to fall in value.

When I lived in Australia the exchange rate was 2$ aussie to 1 US and now it is nearly .80 US to 1$ Australian. Has the wages gone down with the dollar fall, no, so Aluminum has become cheaper for them and more expensive for us! So since aluminum in Aussie dollar terms has gotten cheaper and more cost effective to build boats with (Not to mention Australia is a major producer of the stuff) It is viable to build boats with aluminum.

Fiberglass is not sold on the world market is US dollars so it gets sold for what the local market will pay. Fiberglass is a lot more expensive in Europe than it is in the US... Also in Australia... and I believe Australia does not manufacture any epoxy or polyester resin, all of it has to be imported. I did a project in Brisbane and the polyester came from the US and the glass came from China.

Apples are not apples when your paid in a foreign currency. I have lived in Europe for 4 years and 8 years in Australia... Speaking from experience.
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Old 18-12-2006, 18:07   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pblais
Seaworthy is sort of like saying you want a "good boat".
Yes the term seaworthy does mean too many things. I will be more clear. I like tough, rugged looking sailboats and I am not afraid to admit it. I am more concerned with going safe than going fast.

As for becoming a better sailor, well that is something we are all trying to do all the time. Unfortunately there is a bit of a chicken or the egg scenerio when looking for a boat.
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Old 18-12-2006, 22:24   #27
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Originally Posted by unbusted67
Yes the term seaworthy does mean too many things. I will be more clear. I like tough, rugged looking sailboats and I am not afraid to admit it. I am more concerned with going safe than going fast.

As for becoming a better sailor, well that is something we are all trying to do all the time. Unfortunately there is a bit of a chicken or the egg scenerio when looking for a boat.
But if you start out sailing in fast off the beach , one design, day boats and lets not forget multi's you get your skill levels up.

Spend a bit of time on other peoples boats and see what is a pig and what's not.

Then asess if you are sailing around Cape Horn, or sailing in more gentle climates with more predictable weather patterns.

What's the point in having a bloody icebreaker that'll be great in 40 knot's if 98% of your sailing is in 10 to 15 knot's.

Then you start to realize that fast can in fact be safe and slow may not nesecarilly be so.

Some of the so called safe, strong and heavy boat's i've seen over the years I wouln't step foot on.

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Old 18-12-2006, 22:43   #28
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glass vs alloy

Dave,
That is the most sensible thing any one has said in a long time.
Some sailors get so set in their ways and try and argue that their way is the only way.
Today we have GPS, weatherfax, affordable radar and more reliable equipment etc etc.
The good old days or boats were not that good.

Some people just dont realise how much boating has changed for the better and safer.
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Old 18-12-2006, 23:46   #29
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fair enough.
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Old 19-12-2006, 00:22   #30
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First boat I owned was made of good old Ozzy steel.4mtr long corregated sheet of roofing iron,bent together at the ends with 4x2 between the sides and bolted together jam packed full of pitching tar.Cheap as chips and pretty fancey for poor kids.Best thing was the BIG dam in the bush accross from our place.We had that sucker for at least 4yrs till it sank with me in it in my sunday bests.4yrs of fun for one good hiding from my mum over the clothes issue sure was worth it.Mudnut.
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