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Old 08-12-2004, 07:49   #1
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Question Given these parameters, what boat is right??

Hi All,

Gord has made some good points on another post, which caused me to re-think my previous boat choice, a Morgan OI 41. Given the following "wish list", does any given boat come close in anyone's mind? These aren't in order of importance... yet.

1) Handled by 2 coastal cruising sailors making the move to long range cruising. (40 ft?)

2) Protected helm (Pilothouse, or easily modified to custom pilothouse)

3) Rugged enough to simply heave to or set a sea anchor and go below to ride out even multiple knockdowns in relative safety.

4) Skeg-hung rudder (at least) to protect in case of grounding

5) Steel would be okay, as would strong fiberglass - no real preference

6) Interior setup of the Hylas makes most sense to us, with a dedicated aft queen size berth and waklthrough. Only need 1 stateroom, since we are not having kids, and only the occasional guest.

7) Must have excellent stowage capacity and capacity to add genset, solar, wind, etc... for power as well as washer/dryer combo so the wife does not go crazy while we are working corporate jobs for 3 yrs dockside (pre-cruising departure)

8) Must have decent 100+ gal diesel tankage

** AND THE KICKER - We want to go for less expensive boats and be below $100K! Hey, I wouldn't have posted if I could have figured this one out myself! It's the budget that starts to reduce what we want down to a very few boats.

Ones we have liked so far include:

Tayana 37 (pilothouse)
Morgan OI 41 (build on custom pilothouse)
Hans Christian 39 Pilothouse (DROOL!!)

Am I missing any in our price range that could work as described above?

Thank you in advance for any help, and thanks for taking the time to read this.

Sean
Sold coastal cruiser to save up for the real cruiser - so I have no "S/V ...." for my signature -
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Old 08-12-2004, 14:20   #2
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1. I don't see any real limitations as far as size. Moving up to a boat bigger than you have sailed before takes some time to get used to. Mostly that is in close quarters like docking. With a large boat and two people the deck setup matters a bit more as do winch sizes and mechanical advantage on sheets. Most lines led aft is good too. All this could be said about any desirable boat.

2. Pilothouses are desirable in the high lattitudes. Nordic sailors like them. In hot weather locations they are - too hot. I would not avoid them but I don't see them as an advantage unless you prefer high lattiude sailing.

3. I don't know of such a boat. Better to spend money on weather equipment and a weather FAX. The best way to deal with heavy weather is to be some place else. You still might get some but you should at least try to avoid it.

3. No rudder is better in a grounding or actually totally protected. A modern spade rudder works better. In any event in a grounding the rudder may not be the part more apt to be the problem.

5. With no real preference I would say fibreglass. It is very strong and SIMPLE to repair.

6. Nothing wrong with a Hylas type layout. Myself I only have a forward berth and therefore get more saloon space and storage space. For long cruising think storage and carrying a lot of gear, water, fuel, and provisions. You need lots of stuff to go off to far away places.

7. I would agree with almost everything. Unless you have a bigger boat than you can afford you won't be adding a washer dryer. I would add the solar and wind though. making powewr for free is good.

8. Lots of tankage is good. Don't forget water tanks too. I'm not sore you need 100 gallons of fuel in your budget range. You might not get than much, but get as much as you can.

Up to this point in your list I see nothing in your list that is bad or even undesirable but also nothing that pins down a list of boats. Your budget however limits a lot. Getting a boat all set to go is going to be difficult to purchase, refit and OUTFIT. You won't have much money to outfit or upgrade with. A boat ready to go for $100K is not easy to come by. You'll be looking at boats 20 years old plus or minus to make the numbers work. The potential problems get into serious structural issues that are difficult to survey. No boat of this age is immune to all of the potential problems.
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Old 08-12-2004, 15:26   #3
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My immediate reaction is "ambitious" for that sort of cash. Here are some thoughts:

size of boat is not a particular problem, provided equipment to enable short handed sailing is installed. (after all Ellen is doing the round world at the moment on her own in a 65ft trimaran) Costs start to skyrocket at abt 40ft (rigging, sails berths etc)

100 gallons fuel capacity is only likely to be available on a boat that is a Motor-sailer with performance so poor that anything to windward demands the use of the engine. Most boats that liveaboard and have pretentions of being able to go to windward have less than 50 gallons. However, water is a much more important need, and here I would demand at least 100 gallons. Dont forget that weight is an important aspect of performance, and cannot be ignored with impunity.

Pilothouse is good, or at least some form of cover. I like Exposures roof (see pictures section)

Dont know prices in your side of the puddle, so cant really help - anyway your choices dont have enough hulls for me!
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:55   #4
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Interesting...

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the input. I knew trying to get a boat set up for cruising for approx $100K was going to be a challenge. In land life we had found that there are quality products to be had for much less $$ than other "trusted" brands. Take cars for instance. While saving for crusing life, I drive a 2003 Hyundai Accent. The car had 42K miles on it, a 60K mile warranty, and has run perfectly since I bought it 6 months ago. I paid $5000 for this car because people mistrust Hyundais.

Our assumption was that there might be boats out there of similar standing, in that maybe people think they are ugly or don't like them for some reason or another that has nothing to do with quality, but image. These are the types of crusing boats we wish to seek out.

Is there such a thing? We would gladly give up a feature of two we are looking for in order to save 10's of thousands of dollars. Our philosophy is that it's more important to go than to have the exact perfect boat (other than safety and survival).

I hope my post isn't too annoying.

The economy has been rough on us, as we are 33 yrs and 26 yrs respectively. We were hit hard by the recent recession (lived in Manhattan, small business went under, had to sell my O'day 302 coastal cruiser, etc... etc...). For these reasons, we now live as inexpensively as possible in all manners to save up for cruising life.

Thank you again for your help, and if anyone has any "underdog" dirt cheap cruisers they know of, I would be grateful to hear about them.

Take Care,

Sean
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:20   #5
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Sean, can you back up a few steps?

Sean, my wish for you is that you take a few steps backward on your 'preferences' path; IMO you're looking for the wrong boat. To use your car analogy, I'll point out that your 'good buy' Hyundai is not a Lincoln Town Car.

You two are relatively young, have had a few tough financial blows, and are working hard on a savings plan...so why are you looking for a maritime Town Car? You don't tell us what you plan to do with the boat but it doesn't sound like long-term, long-distance cruising is in your immediate future, so why the steel hull, skeg-hung rudder or 100 gals of diesel?

You'll have to forgive me for speaking candidly; you seem ideal candidates for a well built, good sailing, 30-35' sailboat that's simple but capable. Big boats like Morgans WILL require lots of fuel. Big boats will demand more of your previous savings for their berths, their haulouts and, most insidiously, their systems. (Big boats seem to demand of their owners LOTS of systems, and do so successfully). Another problem for you with bigger boats is that it will force you towards older boats (for the same cost), which bring with them all kinds of second-order effects that have financial consequences: tired structures, legacy systems installed over a long period by a mix of owners who are more and less talented, and also a fair amount of mystery in documentation.

You asked about 'underdog' choices: my reply is that they are everywhere (you don't tell us where you are shopping...) if you see them for what they are. Toss out your preconceived notions about tough cruising boats needing to be big cruising boats and look for top-quality brands that are no longer 'stylish' nor coveted. As just two examples, Dutch-built Contests with goregeous wood interiors and older Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus 35's, recently reconditioned, are on the market all the time and for half the amount you wish to pay. They can take you anywhere, if/when you have a mind to go. Why would you choose 12 tons of boat (loaded out) that's a handful for a couple and of mediocre construction when half the money buys twice the boat (tho' admittedly far less interior volume)?

Based on the little you've shared, my observation is that looking for less will result in far more.

Jack
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Old 10-12-2004, 11:15   #6
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Re: Sean, can you back up a few steps?

Thank you, Jack. No worries regarding candid talk. I didn't post on here so people could tell me what a great choice I was making. I was hoping for a reply like yours and any wiser cruisers who could tell me where I am going wrong.

I think I understand your Lincoln Town car analogy...

The Lincoln Town car is a heavy, inefficient, tank - Much like a Morgan OI or Tayana or that like. Yes, you are correct in assuming cruising is not in our near future, if you mean the next 3 years.

My apologies for not letting you know the purpose of the boat - I had done so in another post and neglected to include that information in this post. Our plans are:

1) Live aboard for 3-4 years starting this fall in NH/MA/RI area of USA, while working corporate "suit wearing" jobs to amass dollars for cruising. We will need a degree of comfort to pull this off, as we will be ironing, cooking, and needing to keep warm on a daily basis to liveaboard while working these types of jobs.

2) Start our extended cruising life by simply spending the first year being "snowbirds" traveling up and down the east coast with favorable weather, Maine to Florida

3) As we gain more confidence (we already have a decent amount, having sailed for 10 yrs from Maine to NYC), we will venture to the Carib.

4) Longer range plans include 2 trans-Atlantic crossings - one to spend time living and working in Europe (I'm an EU/USA dual national), and one to return

We like the idea of being self sufficient and comfortable at the same time. AC can be done without - we have spent time aboard vessels in Bonaire in July and August without AC and found no real trouble in adapting to the heat.

I had intially looked at Hallberg-Rassy's and I appreciate your reminding me of them. I have been aboard newer ones at boat shows and was quite impressed.

I suppose our main problem comes from the fact that we will need a degree of comfort in working these first years we live aboard. If it were simply crusing, and no work, we could make due with just about any interior. At the same time, shopping for a blue water cruiser is difficult because you are not only buying a safe, reliable mode of tranportation, you are also buying a home.

Thanks again for your help. It has inspired me to take another look at yachtworld.com, keeping in mind your suggestions.

Sean


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Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:
Sean, my wish for you is that you take a few steps backward on your 'preferences' path; IMO you're looking for the wrong boat. To use your car analogy, I'll point out that your 'good buy' Hyundai is not a Lincoln Town Car.

You two are relatively young, have had a few tough financial blows, and are working hard on a savings plan...so why are you looking for a maritime Town Car? You don't tell us what you plan to do with the boat but it doesn't sound like long-term, long-distance cruising is in your immediate future, so why the steel hull, skeg-hung rudder or 100 gals of diesel?

You'll have to forgive me for speaking candidly; you seem ideal candidates for a well built, good sailing, 30-35' sailboat that's simple but capable. Big boats like Morgans WILL require lots of fuel. Big boats will demand more of your previous savings for their berths, their haulouts and, most insidiously, their systems. (Big boats seem to demand of their owners LOTS of systems, and do so successfully). Another problem for you with bigger boats is that it will force you towards older boats (for the same cost), which bring with them all kinds of second-order effects that have financial consequences: tired structures, legacy systems installed over a long period by a mix of owners who are more and less talented, and also a fair amount of mystery in documentation.

You asked about 'underdog' choices: my reply is that they are everywhere (you don't tell us where you are shopping...) if you see them for what they are. Toss out your preconceived notions about tough cruising boats needing to be big cruising boats and look for top-quality brands that are no longer 'stylish' nor coveted. As just two examples, Dutch-built Contests with goregeous wood interiors and older Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus 35's, recently reconditioned, are on the market all the time and for half the amount you wish to pay. They can take you anywhere, if/when you have a mind to go. Why would you choose 12 tons of boat (loaded out) that's a handful for a couple and of mediocre construction when half the money buys twice the boat (tho' admittedly far less interior volume)?

Based on the little you've shared, my observation is that looking for less will result in far more.

Jack
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Old 10-12-2004, 12:38   #7
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As you appeared to have opened up the search more than somewhat, I have some suggestions for you which will be dependent on availability.

To maximise the space for boatlength, and comfort for liveaboard consider the following catamarans:

Pre 1985 Prout Snowgoose 37' (selling for about $100000 and several available in USA) not as good a long distance cruiser as the Elite version as it doesnt have as good a load carrying capacity, but a lot cheaper and a better sailor (when not heavily laden)

Heavenly Twins 27' This is a great cruising boat not often appearing in USA, but is cheap (abt $44000 in UK) and has a good track record on long distance cruising - good details available from HERE

Woods Flica 34' or 37' . Interior will be a bit sparse, but these are very good cruising boats with pace and I have seen one for sail in Florida for $55000 (but normally more expensive).
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Old 10-12-2004, 12:59   #8
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What you are looking for is available. But you may need to widen your horizon of search. I know of several boats down here that would suit all your criteria. One that comes to mind is a vessel that has just returend from several years of sailing the world with a young family onboard. It's all decked out and the owner was a real pro at sailing and maintance. So it is well looked after and fitted with all the bells and wistles. They are asking NZ$146K. Now seeing as your US dollar is at around 70cents to ours at the mo, that gets the price to around the US$100K mark. Either getting someone to sail her up to you or getting her on a container ship is all possible and not expensively out of the question.
She is called "Wild Bird" by the way.
I have used the above as just an example. There are many more to choose from and it is all feasable with our NZ$ where it is. Although it has been climbing. 12 months ago, the dollar was at 50cents and it has been as low as 36. Ouch. But it makes it cheap for you guy's.
and good luck with your search.
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Old 10-12-2004, 13:37   #9
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Sean, you've now put your finger it!

You aren't looking for ONE boat, but rather TWO boats. You need a working lifestyle/liveaboard boat for a few years, but a cruising boat thereafter. That is a bit more challenging.

Nonetheless, I'll stick by my suggestion: Before you decide that BIG is a must, even in the short term, think about Medium. E.g. our family of 3 lived a very conventional lifestyle (a suits-and-ties manager & a ritzy-private school teacher plus elementary student son) for 3 years in a seasonal climate (Annapolis, MD; snow on deck each winter and hot/humid summers) on a relatively small Hallberg-Rassy 35. We put a good heating system aboard (Espar forced air; "Hon, would you turn up the thermostat..."), enclosed the cockpit for Winter Mud Room duties, and had a very enjoyable lifestyle. PLUS we were able to incrementally get the boat ready for cruising, and when we left, we had a great sea boat we could enjoy offshore and sail to the Virgins.

Some would find the narrow beam and 'step-over' aft cabin to be unacceptable, but there are always other choices in the 12,000-15,000# range. I think we had a great time because of who we were and what we were about; the boat didn't really matter that much when it was essentially a condo.

We crossed over to Europe in 2003 and have enjoyed two great seasons in the UK and then Scandinavia. What you want to do is worth all the energy and commitment you can pour into it. Just don't pour too much money into too much boat on the front end, make yourselves boat-poor, and find your cruising dreams have been mortgaged when you weren't looking.

You might find a bit of the info at this URL to be useful to you re: your long-term planning: www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/Whoosh%20Main%20Page.htm

Jack
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Old 10-12-2004, 16:09   #10
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Maybe I am out to lunch but I would be happy with a fibreglass Cascade 36 available from Cascade boats in Portland OR or a wooden Young 37 available in Auckland NZ, both priced at about $50,000- US $. Some of the used Cascades have been everywhere and some are equipped ready to go anywhere. Same story with a Young 37. For me it is as simple as that, buy the boat and go sailing anywhere, the problem is what to do with all the junk accumulated on shore. I will be making a major effort to trim down in 005 but I am not going to get rid of tools and other favourite goodies. I think I need a small house or no house and a large secure shed. I can get a trailer cheap.
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Old 10-12-2004, 18:41   #11
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Talking Re: Boat

Thank you again to everyone that is contributing to this thread. My wife and I are greatly in your debt. We are talking tonight about changing our long range plans so we don't have to get a boat that is trans-atlantic capable and can stick to one that can handle the Caribbean only.

We are thinking it may be more worthwhile to save $20-$40K off the price of a truely capable world cruiser and just rent a house in the countryside in Europe when we need to get that fix.

Based on all of your inputs, we are leaning in that direction. In this case, maybe a much newer Beneteau would fit the bill. (We are unsure about the multihulls because of time we have spent aboard them. We felt less "private" being up top like that. We actually LIKE the cave aspect of a good cozy cabin... nuts, right???)

Conversely, this also means that a dog like a Morgan would work. However, at the same time, I can imagine an annoying beat windward leaving the bottom of the Netherland Antilles for St Lucia, etc... Much better if we can sail to windward than if we have to motor and/or beat our way into the trades with a tank.

Again, thank you all for your inputs. This has been a real eye opener for us, and I apprecaite you taking the time to remind us what is truely important in selecting a vessel for extended cruising. I also agree with Mike C regarding just getting out there and doing it, no matter what your budget. We are going to do it cheaply, so we can do it for a long time, working in between.

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions for you experts as time goes by. And maybe... as I get more proficient in these subjects, I can voice my own opinions. For now, they are limited to local knowlege about the North East USA.

Take Care,

Sean



Quote:
BC Mike C once whispered in the wind:
Maybe I am out to lunch but I would be happy with a fibreglass Cascade 36 available from Cascade boats in Portland OR or a wooden Young 37 available in Auckland NZ, both priced at about $50,000- US $. Some of the used Cascades have been everywhere and some are equipped ready to go anywhere. Same story with a Young 37. For me it is as simple as that, buy the boat and go sailing anywhere, the problem is what to do with all the junk accumulated on shore. I will be making a major effort to trim down in 005 but I am not going to get rid of tools and other favourite goodies. I think I need a small house or no house and a large secure shed. I can get a trailer cheap.
Michael
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Old 11-12-2004, 04:09   #12
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Sean:
You’ve just made the leap from “starry-eyed utopian” towards “wildly optimistic pragmatist”.
...changing our long range plans so we don't have to get a boat that is trans-atlantic capable and can stick to one that can handle the Caribbean only...

Your original criteria specified something like a hammer, that could:
- pry
- drive screws
- saw
and
- drain bacon

A luxurious Live-Aboard, suitable for semi-protected & trans-oceanic cruising, would require a lot of mutually-exclusive attributes.

You're on the right track, now ...
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:48   #13
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Quote:
GordMay once whispered in the wind:


You're on the right track, now ...
I think we definitely are, and we owe it all to you guys on this forum. Thanks again. Not many places you can go and post a message or two and potentially save yourself 10's of thousands of dollars!

Can't wait to be able to contribute back.

Thanks, everyone.
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Old 17-12-2004, 09:01   #14
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Sean -
You've already gotten a lot of good advice, and some good sugestions.
I'm admittedly quite biased, but a sister ship to our La Nostra, a CSY 44 "walkover" cutter, could serve you well for what you are seeking. We have several pix on our website (listed below) as well as specs and details. She's heavy (read comfortable, strong and stable), sails well (stick with the deep draft version, not the shoal draft, if you are serious about doing any real offshore work), has LOTS of living space (even for that washer/dryer you mentioned - many folk have put them into the forward shower stall or under the V berth), offers a great liveaboard layout with the totally private aft cabin so you are not always "in each others faces", has the tankage you said you wanted (100 gal fuel, 400 gal water), will go anywhere (several have circumnavigated) and, depending on location and condition, many are available at reasonable prices. (We got ours in 2001 for $72K inGrenada, and that included many recent upgrades, like a new engine & trnsmission, new mainsail, etc.)
Of course, these were only built from '77 to '81, so age is a factor which means items like chainplates and stanchions may be candidates for replacement, but no more so than with any other boat in this age range.
Another possibility is the CSY 37. Not as large, nor, in our opinion, as pretty, but great boats non-the-less, and many are available in the $50K (or less) range.
if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.
Happy Hunting!
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Old 19-12-2004, 13:28   #15
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Thank you!

Thank you, Harry! This is another to add to the possibility list. I see that CSYs are well thought of in general on this board... or... possibly I have finally fell victim to CSYman's marketing and advertising...

I will take a look at them. Thanks again.

Sean
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