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Old 21-12-2015, 10:17   #46
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

My suggestion would be a 30 to 32 ft boat at your price range. You will need to buy new sails, a motor rebuild, replace the head, a dink and motor not to mention charts, gps , batteries, Pdfs etc etc.. consider the boat about 30% to 40% of the price.
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Old 21-12-2015, 11:02   #47
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I don't see a "that made me LOL for real" smiley so Ima go with



I think the problem is that when you have 0 sailing experience, "against the prevailing wind" might not mean much. After all, that's what the engine is for, right?

Reminds me of a guy I met a couple of years ago, planning a solo 'round the world trip before he ever set foot on a sailboat. He was even more enthusiastic (not to say "manic") then the OP.
Very long story short: he sold everything, bought a boat (not a bad one either) and left. He barely made it through the Gulf of Biscay and got on a plane back to the Netherlands as soon as he set foot on Spanish soil.

Boat finally sold for about half her value, leaving him close to bankruptcy. Bye, bye dreams, bye bye everything. All that for a few days of sailing -- and it could all have been prevented if only he'd taken a little more time ...
With all due respect my friend, but that can be said about even frying an egg.

The world is full of sheeps, fear mongers and quitters. The easiest thing to find in life is always people who want to discourage you and scare you to death. Don't eat because you might choke, don't poop because you are going to have to clean yourself, don't breath you might cough, don't run you might fall, don't chew you might bite yourself, don't look up something might be falling, and so on.

You are right, i changed my mind, i am not buying a sailboat, i am going to sit in an apartment and not even go outside because it is too dangerous and i might get shot, or run over by a car. I better make a deep hole underground in case a plane crashes on my shack.

You know when i was young i heard a lot of scary stuff about leaving the Island also. You don't know the language and you going to America? You do not know the culture and never been there and you are going to America? You are not going to make it! you are going to freeze to death! They are going to find you dead in the streets, you are going to starve to death, they don't like Puerto Ricans and they are going to kill you, you don't even know where you are going and you are going where? You are crazy!, it can not be done, you are going to waste your money and come back broke and all for nothing. I see you back in a couple of months and they laughed, you are going to get sick, you don't speak a shred of english and you are going to die out there far away from those who loves you, what if you can't call home? How are going to find you? You don't have enough money to survive for even 6 months! Yeap, you will be back with your tail between your legs, and they laughed.

When i said that i wanted to join the United States Army the world came to an end and i was never going to return and everybody cried as if i was going to really die. Well two tours and i came back and when the Iraq war broke out i was first in line and the bastards told me i was too old! I can run up a mountain with a donkey strapped to my back and they told me that i was too old?

Well, i laughed at them 30 years later...and where are they? sitting in the same place i left them, regretful now that they never took any chances or any risks. Asking me questions about my adventures and my exploits and listening like little kids with wide eyes, living vicariously through the adventures of others. Not me!

I am 56 years young and i will bet my hard earned cash, that i have lived a very full life compared to many of you. I have died and live! I have cheated death more than once and no i am not scared of the unknown. I learned a long time ago that if you are going into a lemon grove, then take sugar with you and make lemonade and if you don't have water then sprinkle sugar over those lemons and suck on those lemons and stop complaining.

What's interesting is that it is no longer productive to keep harping on the same old negativity because it is counter productive. Educate me, warn me, advice me, and support me and encourage me with wisdom. But now you are bordering in the cynical and sarcastic as if i was a dumbass that can not understand the perils of sailing unprepared and without experience.

I have taken everything in, i have modify my plans and approach and i have listened to everything that it has been offered to me respectfully and appreciative.

Again, respectfully...

I have listened, i am moving to Florida first. Then once there i am going to start evaluating sailboats, and i said EVALUATING SAILBOATS, not buying, i am going to follow the advice that i have been given here by the book because i respect the advice here and the people here and it makes sense.

Now! How about some love and positiveness and encouragement? Tell me if it is dangerous and why so i can evaluate and research the issue. Give me information and wisdom. Edify me not break me down with fear and terror. tell me why and why not with facts and knowledge, educate me with facts and possibilities and tell me about equipment, hulls, rigs, tanks, anchors, heads, galleys, reefs, and all that i should be concern with.

I understand your concerns, but trust me, i have listened more than you know...i am not taking a sailboat from Lake Michigan to Florida, i got it it is suicide and i thank you from the bottom of my heart for possibly saving my butt. REALLY! I am thankful for you all!

Sorry i was rude or mean, not trying to be
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Old 21-12-2015, 11:16   #48
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRican View Post
You are right, i changed my mind, i am not buying a sailboat, i am going to sit in an apartment and not even go outside
Sigh. Nobody said anything about not going forward with your plans.
We're only advising you (on your request!) to slow down a little.

Not even because of the risks to you - those are your choices.
If you should run into trouble (and that doesn't have to be life threatening trouble at all - many rescues at sea are NOT life or death situations for those getting the help) other people will be risking their lives and limbs to help you. Something to consider ...

As long as your boat is afloat, it's not a life or death situation.
However - there are many, many situations in which you will require help from others when it gets too much for you to handle.
That is what most of us are talking about, not the (very small) chance of you actually going down with your boat.

You keep asking, but get annoyed by the answers.
Like I said before: it's your life, and you should do whatever YOU think is best.
All I'm saying is don't keep asking for advise if your main reaction is to tell people why it's the wrong advise for you.

You want to learn and evaluate everything from behind (or in front of, I guess ) your computer.
Internet can't give you sailing experience, only sailing can.
You're asking us to tell you everything you need to know - simply an impossible request.

Just buy a boat and sail - you'll figure the rest out once you get going.
As you've been told over and over: any decent built boat will do.
What boats you like, only you know.

So - buy a boat -any boat- and get sailing!
You have $15k for the boat - add around $10k to fix her up and outfit her for cruising and off you go.

You know the route you want to sail, and when you want to be where, so you can research the risks, difficult and easy parts etc. yourself. There's also plenty of books discussing cruising routes.
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Old 21-12-2015, 13:43   #49
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

I do understand that managing risks will be by your choice. Of course, no one else can do that for you anyway.

So, with that out of the way, let's consider this first boat and some of your choices that are always compromises. I'll just suggest some of the choices that are made as commitments at purchase and not things that can be easily changed later.

1. Cabin layout: accommodations for one, two, .....more,- guests/crew
2. Underwater configuration: choices of keel type determine ability to cruise in shallow water, performance to windward, comfort offshore, risk of damage with grounding, degree of maintenance...
2. Inboard or outboard engine: expense, replacement cost, weight distribution, motoring in "chop" short interval waves.
3. Tankage: Volumes that determine your cruising range by fuel and water
4. Hull material construction: corrosion, rot, strength, performance, resale value
5. Rig: Sloop, Cutter, Ketch, etc.: complexity, expense, performance

Lets take an example. Lets say you decide that you would like to have one added crew member at times and expect relatively short hops among the Keys and Bahamas where there are many shallow anchorages, but yet some exposed offshore passages with a greater interest in durability than speed and you hope to keep maintenance as simple as possible.

This might translate into a 27 to 32 foot fiberglass sloop or cutter with a draft no more than five feet, an encapsulated keel. Likely, a 15 to 25hp small inboard diesel with a ca 20 gallon fuel tank and 30 to 40 gallons of water. Sometimes there might be a vessel that has what you want and more, but be sure to have a clear decision of what you must have at the least.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:19   #50
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Choosing the right boat is the most important thing. I spent months reading this forum and made use of it's search engine. Google is hands down the best way to find out about a particular boat. When you find a vessel your interested in type the manufacturer name, size then words like problems, blisters, delimitation and you'll be amazed at what you'll learn.


Forum members have big hearts and will help anyway they can. But a major problem with getting help is biases, we Al have them. After months and months of research and looking at more then a few boats. I made one post about what to lookout for. Members responded with great advice and I now own a trouble free Catalina 320
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Old 21-12-2015, 17:09   #51
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRican View Post
Now! How about some love and positiveness and encouragement? Tell me if it is dangerous and why so i can evaluate and research the issue. Give me information and wisdom. Edify me not break me down with fear and terror. tell me why and why not with facts and knowledge, educate me with facts and possibilities and tell me about equipment, hulls, rigs, tanks, anchors, heads, galleys, reefs, and all that i should be concern with.
As long as you dont buy the farm on a project boat, you probably won't have too many regrets about what you end up with. Other's have given you good criteria for what to look for generally. Learn as much as you can prior to purchase and then go do it. But there is no substitute for hands-on experience in determining what will work best for you and what you really want/need.

Only other thing I'd add is that time/money spent learning the systems onboard and how to maintain them will prove equally, if not more, important than time spent researching the academics of what makes this or that boat "mo better" than another.
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Old 21-12-2015, 18:23   #52
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Cap, here is a positive thought.
Don't get to worked up, I see people preparing boats for years to "Go South" and never go or they need to just do one more thing. Then I see a girl from our marina, with no sailing experience, bought an very old Bristol 35 for half your budget. I thought it needed everything, leaks fixed, sails, needed to replace an air-cool diesel (didn't even know they existed), no electronics. Well she took off down the ditch, went over a 1,000 miles mostly by herself and made the keys and now in the Bahamas. Would I do that no, but it can be done. Being prepared for everything is great, but doing is the real classroom.

As Nike says, just do it.
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Old 22-12-2015, 18:51   #53
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by Hudson Force View Post
This might translate into a 27 to 32 foot fiberglass sloop or cutter with a draft no more than five feet, an encapsulated keel. Likely, a 15 to 25hp small inboard diesel with a ca 20 gallon fuel tank and 30 to 40 gallons of water. Sometimes there might be a vessel that has what you want and more, but be sure to have a clear decision of what you must have at the least.
I think you have been reading my mind HF. lol!

More fuel and much more water storage are major plusses for me, but with a 30/32 I can carry plenty of extra fuel and water in containers (I can also increase tankage later).

If he's anything like me, CaptRican's main problem is being spoilt for choice. There's a LOT of boats on the market (design, not condition) that tick enough of the right boxes. When all you can buy is a Trabant . . . . . . life may be much easier, but it is nowhere near as much fun.

Quote:
Lizzy

I think the problem is that when you have 0 sailing experience, "against the prevailing wind" might not mean much.
I'm a bit fanatical about this, and it is understandably impacting the boat selection I am considering. Almost all of my sailing has been done in areas where this results in really nasty wave shapes when wind and tide are fighting it out, in not particularly deep water. Beating into 3ft to 6ft vertically walled waves for hours at a time in a boat with poor motion comfort, rapidly loses its novelty value.

Days of it rather than hours, is a sobering concept that I would very much like to avoid. But with good motion comfort it isn't really an issue (well, it's an issue, but not generally a serious one).

Actually I am quite grateful to CaptRican (thank you Cap'n, I owe you a drink) for opening up some possibilities, with reasonable draught encapsulated keel boats, that have surprisingly good displacement and motion comfort numbers, when I have been more focused on full keel designs. Whoda thunk?

Personally, I think it's a darned shame the Erie Canal opens so late in the year. A month earlier would suit me great, but it is what it is, and nothing can be done about that (so smart move heading to Florida Cap'n, imho).

Must admit I would really like to travel that Erie Canal, so may end up along it one day.

Something to remember with fitting out Cap'n. You can always get gear on the secondhand market which can help out a lot. For example, there's plenty of secondhand sails around with at least a few years of life left in them, which can do the necessaries and buy time, for not a lot of money. I expect to pick up a couple of spares along the way, plus as well some really cheap ones to scavenge for materials for repairs (as long as I don't have to knit one, like the Viking woollen longboat sails, I think I'll be ok - can you even get knitting needles that long any more?).

So good luck with your search Cap'n, we all need a bit of luck. It's important (my old neighbour took giving buyers of his calves 'luck money' very seriously).
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:33   #54
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson Force View Post
I do understand that managing risks will be by your choice. Of course, no one else can do that for you anyway.

So, with that out of the way, let's consider this first boat and some of your choices that are always compromises. I'll just suggest some of the choices that are made as commitments at purchase and not things that can be easily changed later.

1. Cabin layout: accommodations for one, two, .....more,- guests/crew
2. Underwater configuration: choices of keel type determine ability to cruise in shallow water, performance to windward, comfort offshore, risk of damage with grounding, degree of maintenance...
2. Inboard or outboard engine: expense, replacement cost, weight distribution, motoring in "chop" short interval waves.
3. Tankage: Volumes that determine your cruising range by fuel and water
4. Hull material construction: corrosion, rot, strength, performance, resale value
5. Rig: Sloop, Cutter, Ketch, etc.: complexity, expense, performance

Lets take an example. Lets say you decide that you would like to have one added crew member at times and expect relatively short hops among the Keys and Bahamas where there are many shallow anchorages, but yet some exposed offshore passages with a greater interest in durability than speed and you hope to keep maintenance as simple as possible.

This might translate into a 27 to 32 foot fiberglass sloop or cutter with a draft no more than five feet, an encapsulated keel. Likely, a 15 to 25hp small inboard diesel with a ca 20 gallon fuel tank and 30 to 40 gallons of water. Sometimes there might be a vessel that has what you want and more, but be sure to have a clear decision of what you must have at the least.
I am so thankful for that nugget of precious information. I can work with this as a baseline as to where to build from. I am reading about sailing and it has a lot of nomenclatures that i have never heard, so it is hard to remember where is what and what is what and what is called what.

There is a ton to learn...

Thank you for your time buddy!
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:38   #55
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drift Woods View Post
Choosing the right boat is the most important thing. I spent months reading this forum and made use of it's search engine. Google is hands down the best way to find out about a particular boat. When you find a vessel your interested in type the manufacturer name, size then words like problems, blisters, delimitation and you'll be amazed at what you'll learn.


Forum members have big hearts and will help anyway they can. But a major problem with getting help is biases, we Al have them. After months and months of research and looking at more then a few boats. I made one post about what to lookout for. Members responded with great advice and I now own a trouble free Catalina 320
I always appreciate the help and the advice and the time that everyone takes to help me. I am following in your footsteps and thank you for posting how you did it is all lessons to me.

I have no problems with biases because i can look at those biases too, they are like hypothesis to test.

So a Cataline 320 was it? Cool!! I am happy for you man i hope that you make great memories with that lady!

Thanks for your time! and the advice!
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:43   #56
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by laika View Post
As long as you dont buy the farm on a project boat, you probably won't have too many regrets about what you end up with. Other's have given you good criteria for what to look for generally. Learn as much as you can prior to purchase and then go do it. But there is no substitute for hands-on experience in determining what will work best for you and what you really want/need.

Only other thing I'd add is that time/money spent learning the systems onboard and how to maintain them will prove equally, if not more, important than time spent researching the academics of what makes this or that boat "mo better" than another.
You know when i first came here i had all these pre conceived ideas of what was what. At first i though i wanted a 40, then a 38, then a 35, then a 32 and now i came to the realization that until i get my head in a few i won't really know nothing.

I have bought some books so far, but there is a lot of info...i feel like i am back taking college classes.

But i agree with you, i need to learn all of the systems and learn the sailboat like the palm of my hand.

I am listening to everything and every nugget of info and i am very thankful for your time. Thank you very much!
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Old 22-12-2015, 19:53   #57
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by CaptRican View Post

I have bought some books so far, but there is a lot of info...i feel like i am back taking college classes.
It's the only one that has ever been any good - the University of Life/School of Hard Knocks.
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Old 22-12-2015, 20:03   #58
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by puffcard View Post
Cap, here is a positive thought.
Don't get to worked up, I see people preparing boats for years to "Go South" and never go or they need to just do one more thing. Then I see a girl from our marina, with no sailing experience, bought an very old Bristol 35 for half your budget. I thought it needed everything, leaks fixed, sails, needed to replace an air-cool diesel (didn't even know they existed), no electronics. Well she took off down the ditch, went over a 1,000 miles mostly by herself and made the keys and now in the Bahamas. Would I do that no, but it can be done. Being prepared for everything is great, but doing is the real classroom.

As Nike says, just do it.
Sometimes you got to cut the rope and just go. I agree with that and i have done just that many times and that is exciting and exhilarating. Sometimes you get away with the craziness because you know no better and you get lucky.

When i was in Puerto Rico i bought a jetski from my friend. His advice? Don't go by yourself way out there! Well i did just that, now i am sitting in the channel where all the BIG commercial freighters and cruisers come into the San Juan Harbor. I am trying to accelerate but i hear the engine revving but hardly any movement of the jetski. I look at the horizon and i see a huge freighter at the distance. I am thinking that maybe i have something stuck in the intake, at the distance i see Isla de Cabra (goat island) and i remembered that someone had been eating alive in that area by sharks and i thought i am not swimming in this waters, i would rather get hit by the freighter or take my chances of them spotting me and rescuing me so it went.

I wanted to get in the water to see if i could dislodge whatever was obstructing the intake, but it was murky and i couldn't see two feet in front of me. I looked up and i see the freighter this time a bit closer but not so close to be a concern yet. I look at the water and i am very nervous about getting in. I know that sharks love murky water and that they will stay at a distance and then just come in for the bite or to nossle you.

I looked up the freighter now is within a worrisome distance. I am about to get in the water when i hit the accelerator again and bang i was out of there. The words of my friend were reverberating loud in my coconut and i thought never again. But i did it again this time during a storm...i will leave that one for another day!

Now i am too old for crazy stuff like that, more cautious, more careful...this is a big move for me, it is a mid life move and i want it to go as smooth as possible.

But who knows i might let the kid in me win and i go and buy a big clunker and sail away to Hawaii and rough it!

Thanks for your time!
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:16   #59
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
I think you have been reading my mind HF. lol!

More fuel and much more water storage are major plusses for me, but with a 30/32 I can carry plenty of extra fuel and water in containers (I can also increase tankage later).

If he's anything like me, CaptRican's main problem is being spoilt for choice. There's a LOT of boats on the market (design, not condition) that tick enough of the right boxes. When all you can buy is a Trabant . . . . . . life may be much easier, but it is nowhere near as much fun.



I'm a bit fanatical about this, and it is understandably impacting the boat selection I am considering. Almost all of my sailing has been done in areas where this results in really nasty wave shapes when wind and tide are fighting it out, in not particularly deep water. Beating into 3ft to 6ft vertically walled waves for hours at a time in a boat with poor motion comfort, rapidly loses its novelty value.

Days of it rather than hours, is a sobering concept that I would very much like to avoid. But with good motion comfort it isn't really an issue (well, it's an issue, but not generally a serious one).

Actually I am quite grateful to CaptRican (thank you Cap'n, I owe you a drink) for opening up some possibilities, with reasonable draught encapsulated keel boats, that have surprisingly good displacement and motion comfort numbers, when I have been more focused on full keel designs. Whoda thunk?

Personally, I think it's a darned shame the Erie Canal opens so late in the year. A month earlier would suit me great, but it is what it is, and nothing can be done about that (so smart move heading to Florida Cap'n, imho).

Must admit I would really like to travel that Erie Canal, so may end up along it one day.

Something to remember with fitting out Cap'n. You can always get gear on the secondhand market which can help out a lot. For example, there's plenty of secondhand sails around with at least a few years of life left in them, which can do the necessaries and buy time, for not a lot of money. I expect to pick up a couple of spares along the way, plus as well some really cheap ones to scavenge for materials for repairs (as long as I don't have to knit one, like the Viking woollen longboat sails, I think I'll be ok - can you even get knitting needles that long any more?).

So good luck with your search Cap'n, we all need a bit of luck. It's important (my old neighbour took giving buyers of his calves 'luck money' very seriously).
Thank you very much for that tid bit of advice and info, i am glad to hear that there is a secondary market for everything sailboat.

Thanks for the well wishes and for the good luck! It is appreciated!
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:17   #60
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Re: Get a Michigan or Florida sailboat

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It's the only one that has ever been any good - the University of Life/School of Hard Knocks.
Can't disagree with that! If you don't learn in that school then i don't know what school is going to be able to teach ya!
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