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Old 26-07-2010, 20:48   #31
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My SJ 23 has the Winged keel as in the picture (close anyway). Great down wind performance, holds a tight line to the wind, but tacking... well not so good as it tends to fall back on the line it just tacked from, until it builds speed and takes a heel and digs in.
Comparing the taking to a cat 22 long keel, night and day.

I'll be going with a Skeg rudder, and a medium/long (not full keel) draft in the 5-6' range (32-36' boat). Looking for the best of both worlds but Ocean ready.

I did see one of the dual keel boats up in Port Townsend Wa a while back. Fantastic boat. No in board, rather 2 outboards (linked, but still independent power/F/R controlled) Dang thing turned on a DIME! 44"+ and spun like on a top.
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Old 26-07-2010, 21:29   #32
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Dix, Van de Stadt, Fin, skeg, build next to house...

The origami boats look very traditional. I have not seen any here in Oz.

The two designers with the most "up to date" designs that I am aware of are Dudley Dix and Van de Stadt. Dix maybe more modern and a little faster, Van De Stadt more comprehensive plans and better resale?

From memory the majority of steel designs are fin keel. For the rudder more careful engineering probably trumps barn door.

The real issue in DIY is where. It's doable on a big boat (and 45' steel is big) but it's a long job (10,000hours +) so having the boat outside the kitchen door makes a huge difference in getting the job done.

If you can pre prime (SigmaWeld?) the plates and then prime and paint as you go it may be feasible to do your own interior painting and the exterior could possibly be abrasive blasted after launch?

The biggie for me would be to be able to fully manage the boat from a proper pilothouse.

I very much doubt if it could be done for $100,000. I'd expect materials, components and expenses to be more than double that.
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Old 26-07-2010, 21:29   #33
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you're confusing terms. "Fixed" keels include: "full," "modified," "bulb," "fin," "bilge," and "wing" keels. Keels that are not "fixed" would include: centerboards, lifting keels, canting keels, and swing keels.
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Old 26-07-2010, 22:05   #34
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Remember when you build a boat the hull and deck are maybe 30% of the boat. If you are figuring to build a 45' boat for under $100,000 in ten years you will have thousands of hours labor into a boat that nowhere near done. Save your money and buy a cheap boat now, go sailing and in 8 years buy a boat to take you where you want to go.
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Old 27-07-2010, 00:41   #35
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Budget is not really an issue. It's not like a can go out and buy a $500,000 boat tomorrow or ever. But I know I can build one hell of a 45' steel boat for less than $100,000. Maybe a lot less.

Now if I win the lottery during the building process (I dont play the lottery so it will be hard) who knows what I will do. LOL
Umm, I don't think you can build much of a 45' boat for $100k. Maybe if you value your time at zero, and are willing to pour in a few thousand hours of it, you could squeak by. A stem to stern refit of an existing 45' boat with new rig, new propulsion, new interior fitout, new systems etc., would cost about that much, and could be much more if you equip to a reasonable level (watermaker, SSB, genset, etc., etc.).

Unless you just enjoy tinkering for its own sake, you will save a lot of money and years of time by just buying something used and getting out on the water. Even if you enjoy tinkering for its own sake (and most of us do, by the way), you will get PLENTY of it on a functioning, sailing boat, and as a bonus you'll get to actually sail a little, whenever you need a diversion from tinkering!
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Old 27-07-2010, 01:28   #36
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What would you rather have under you in a hurricane?
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Old 27-07-2010, 06:04   #37
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You wanna 45' boat that transports easily on land? What is that about? Are we talking weekend inland lake sailing here? If you need to move it, do it once. When it's wet, that's it, done.

I think you miss read my post.
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Old 27-07-2010, 06:13   #38
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Umm, I don't think you can build much of a 45' boat for $100k. Maybe if you value your time at zero, and are willing to pour in a few thousand hours of it, you could squeak by. A stem to stern refit of an existing 45' boat with new rig, new propulsion, new interior fitout, new systems etc., would cost about that much, and could be much more if you equip to a reasonable level (watermaker, SSB, genset, etc., etc.).

Well my time would be free. I am totally capable of doing the job as good (actually better) than any boat builder would.

Also I would not buy a new engine or generator when I can buy one and rebuild it.

I was a machinist for 12 years before starting my business so I am pretty good at working with metal.

When I was 13 years old I helped my Dad replace the hull on his 42' steel hull Chris Craft Roamer and that only took us about 3 weekends. One man and a 13 year old. Yes I could weld at 13 years old. Actually I was 12 when I started learning how to weld.

I am not saying your numbers are off but with 10 years to work on the project and find the best deals on stuff I think I can do it for a lot less than $100,000 to tell the truth.

EDIT: Forgot to add (dont know how) I built the house I live in now.
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Old 27-07-2010, 06:29   #39
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Unless you just enjoy tinkering for its own sake, you will save a lot of money and years of time by just buying something used and getting out on the water. Even if you enjoy tinkering for its own sake (and most of us do, by the way), you will get PLENTY of it on a functioning, sailing boat, and as a bonus you'll get to actually sail a little, whenever you need a diversion from tinkering!
Absolutely, buy a steel hulled yacht now, sail it for 10 years and have a really good time. Lots of holidays etc and in a decades time, if it still fits your needs you have a yacht you know well. If not, you will have lots of experience to consider what you do need for a long distance live aboard, met lots of folks and seen lots of other ideas along the way.

How often do people say your first yacht is not your last.

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Old 27-07-2010, 06:38   #40
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Well my time would be free. I am totally capable of doing the job as good (actually better) than any boat builder would.

Also I would not buy a new engine or generator when I can buy one and rebuild it.

I was a machinist for 12 years before starting my business so I am pretty good at working with metal.

When I was 13 years old I helped my Dad replace the hull on his 42' steel hull Chris Craft Roamer and that only took us about 3 weekends. One man and a 13 year old. Yes I could weld at 13 years old. Actually I was 12 when I started learning how to weld.

I am not saying your numbers are off but with 10 years to work on the project and find the best deals on stuff I think I can do it for a lot less than $100,000 to tell the truth.

EDIT: Forgot to add (dont know how) I built the house I live in now.
Well, if you are purely interested in the tinkering and are less interested in the sailing then go for it. If doing the work for its own sake is that much rewarding and satisfying.

But the point we are all making is that for the same amount of money or less than you would spend on materials and equipment you can buy a functioning boat which you can actually sail now.

None of us, no matter how young, can be sure of even being alive 10 years from now. As a result I tend to avoid 10-year projects, personally.

I like tinkering but I also like being on the water. I probably get a day on the water for every two days of working on the boat, which is more than enough tinkering for me, personally.
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Old 27-07-2010, 07:02   #41
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I see what you guys are saying now. I also want the next 10 years to save money. I have a pretty good amount now and I know my business will produce income after I leave. BUT I really want enough in the bank not to have to worry about money after I'm 50 years old. I may sell my business also.

So if I bought and maintained a boat for the next 10 years it will cut into that money. Heck Marina fees alone would be a big cut.

Plus I live only 40 miles from the ten-tom waterway (where you cant sail) but I live 200 miles from a beach.

I grew up in Florida but moved to MS because of cheaper living (to save) and business opportunities are ripe here.
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Old 27-07-2010, 07:05   #42
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I see what you guys are saying now. I also want the next 10 years to save money. I have a pretty good amount now and I know my business will produce income after I leave. BUT I really want enough in the bank not to have to worry about money after I'm 50 years old. I may sell my business also.

So if I bought and maintained a boat for the next 10 years it will cut into that money. Heck Marina fees alone would be a big cut.

Plus I live only 40 miles from the ten-tom waterway (where you cant sail) but I live 200 miles from a beach.

I grew up in Florida but moved to MS because of cheaper living (to save) and business opportunities are ripe here.
OK, now I understand. If you're not near the ocean and sailing is something for the future, then you'll be better off saving your money and investing it, and buying a boat when you're ready to start sailing, than buying materials for a boat-building project. If instead of pouring hours into a project where those hours will be worth zero, you put those hours into productive work and earning money, which you then save and invest, you'll be far ahead of the game.
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Old 27-07-2010, 07:15   #43
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And in the meantime use holidays to charter yachts so someone else pays the big annual bills. Doesn't matter what they are or where, indeed the more the merrier. You will see what works and perhaps more importantly what doesn't (6'3" american football player sleeping in a 5'8" berth)

Ever been to Greece?

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Old 27-07-2010, 07:21   #44
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Dunno what the 2nd boat is, but I'm sure the 3rd one is a Leisure 17.
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Old 27-07-2010, 07:32   #45
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OK, now I understand. If you're not near the ocean and sailing is something for the future, then you'll be better off saving your money and investing it, and buying a boat when you're ready to start sailing, than buying materials for a boat-building project. If instead of pouring hours into a project where those hours will be worth zero, you put those hours into productive work and earning money, which you then save and invest, you'll be far ahead of the game.
Yea now we are on the same page.. I know where your coming from but my wife and I really want to build it ourselves. We built our house, t-bucket (it's a fast car), and I bet we have restored 10 boats together. We also remodeled our last Florida home together. We really like doing stuff like that together. She is not your normal wife. LOL

Plus we know if we build it we will get exactly what we want. It will not be a compromise.

We have been talking about this for a LOOONG, LOOOOONG time. We where talking about this long before the Bumfuzzles ever set sail.

It was our Daughters wedding that pushed the point home that if we are really going to do it we need to get started. So here I am asking about keels getting started. LOL
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