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Old 09-03-2013, 09:41   #61
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

I have sailed both 'classic' long keel and racing fine keel boats upwind. I think the keel design was less important than bow shape/displacement fore, in most cases.

Too bad so many long keel hulls have so much displacement fore and such ample bows - these tend to get into the wave ... and stop ;-( Too bad so many long keel boats seem to have less than adequate sail shape and sail area ;-(. Otherwise, they are cream to sail in.

A fine entry long keel will easily sail within 90 degrees (yes, I know this is no big deal compared with any fine foil boat).

I would chose a fine entry, long keel boat for any offshore upwind work - better comfort, less banging and easier to control with minimum of stress on the driver.

As the boat gets bigger, it tends to sail upwind better as it has more momentum and does not get stopped by the waves all this much.

Most of the above said from the open (and choppy) water perspective.

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Old 09-03-2013, 09:50   #62
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

[QUOTE=malbert73;1180015]
"Money no object, the only reason I can think of to have a full keel boat is classic looks (which Hinckley and Morris maintain with fin keel boats) and advantage of attached rudder (structural, and resistance to line snagging). For those of us who don't yet have unlimited budgets, and are buying vintage boats, full keel boats often are sturdier used boats.[/QUOTE]"

That's a good bottom line for those aspiring to offshore work.

There is a big difference in different "full-ish" keels. I think the "comfort at sea" thing is bunk. .... Nothing more uncomfortable than a heavy tub wallowing at sea. I'll take the fast action of a light boat or cat any day....
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:16   #63
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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
remember that all fin keels are not created equal.. ours is large enough to hide a car behind it..
and on another note,
because a boat states it draws 4 feet, it dosent mean it has a 4 foot keel.. my sons Choy Lee 31 offshore called for about 3.5 feet of draft but the keel was only about "1" foot off the bottom of the boat.. I think you'll find this true with many full keel boats.. the dept of the keel is small..
The comment above alludes to reason that you will sometimes hear the term, "foil" instead of "keel". The underwater foil includes everything below the waterline and it is the shape of the underwater foil that determines the location of the underwater Center of Effort (CE). So, the Choy Lee in the above comment probably has an underwater CE whose location is more influenced by the hull below the waterline than by the keel per se.

Most sailors I know acknowledge, "Sail Power" by Wallace Ross as the 'Bible' on this topic. I learn something every time I pick it up.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:25   #64
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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There is a big difference in different "full-ish" keels. I think the "comfort at sea" thing is bunk. .... Nothing more uncomfortable than a heavy tub wallowing at sea. I'll take the fast action of a light boat or cat any day....
In my experience weight does make a difference, but I'm talking about a heavy, full bodied and keeled boat that can sail, not "wallow." My wife was never more seasick than on our catamaran, but she has usually been fine on the couple of heavy slow rolling monohulls we've had. We've talked to other folks with the same issue. Some people find the shorter, quick motions of cats and light monos worse than the longer, slower motions of heavier displacement craft, especially going to windward.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:06   #65
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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In my experience weight does make a difference, but I'm talking about a heavy, full bodied and keeled boat that can sail, not "wallow." My wife was never more seasick than on our catamaran, but she has usually been fine on the couple of heavy slow rolling monohulls we've had. We've talked to other folks with the same issue. Some people find the shorter, quick motions of cats and light monos worse than the longer, slower motions of heavier displacement craft, especially going to windward.
Yeah, everybody's different. I'm just the opposite. I loved not having bruised hips from banging down the companionway at sea for days also when I had the cat. The jerk of a cat does take some getting used to... it's a quick subtle motion...
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Old 11-03-2013, 16:19   #66
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
....

Money no object, the only reason I can think of to have a full keel boat is classic looks (which Hinckley and Morris maintain with fin keel boats) and advantage of attached rudder (structural, and resistance to line snagging).
Today modern classic, meaning boats that have a classic look have fin keels and spade rudders. So, not even that. It only makes sense to have a full keel boat if that is a true preserved genuine classic, a historical boat....or if the money is a not enough to buy a used more modern boat.
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Old 11-03-2013, 16:49   #67
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Today modern classic, meaning boats that have a classic look have fin keels and spade rudders. So, not even that. It only makes sense to have a full keel boat if that is a true preserved genuine classic, a historical boat....or if the money is a not enough to buy a used more modern boat.
Which is exactly what I said!
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Old 11-03-2013, 17:06   #68
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

If I could afford a boat with classic looks and modern underbody/spars/sails I would get one today.

If builders back in 1900 had such underbodies/spars/sails available, they would have built them this way.

Technology and development do not stand in the way of classic looks.

Many Hoeks e.g. have modern underbodies, Spectra sails, furling gennakers and carbon spars (yes - painted to imitate wood). They are classic every inch.

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Old 11-03-2013, 17:49   #69
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

Something to think about, from my one-design racing days: even when two boats with identical sails and underbodies are racing, one boat can be made to point higher than the other if/when the crew is able to keep it flat. Some of that has to do with sail trim, certainly, but it also has a great deal to do with crew weight on the rail. A flat boat will out-point a boat dipping its rail, all other factors being equal, and all sails being trim (in other words, the flat boat isn't pinching.) The boat with its rail in the water may be going faster, but its VMG will usually be worse.

If you understand this basic principle, you'll understand why some full-keeled boats can out-point some fin-keeled boats. A stiff boat will tend to out-point a tender boat. This is also why crisp sails tend to out-point saggy sails, because saggy sails tend to make a boat, any boat, more tender.
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Old 11-03-2013, 17:58   #70
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
If I could afford a boat with classic looks and modern underbody/spars/sails I would get one today.

If builders back in 1900 had such underbodies/spars/sails available, they would have built them this way.
.
Check this boat out, B. Home Construction plans here: http://www.jakatan.com/jakatan_001.htm It's a one-off by Robert Perry that was a couple slips over from me at a former marina. A schooner with carbon spars, et cetera. Kicks butt in the Great Schooner Race here in SF Bay.

Probably something you'd like? Unfortunately, a one-off like that will set you back more than a million $$.
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Old 11-03-2013, 18:40   #71
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Check this boat out, B. Home Construction plans here: http://www.jakatan.com/jakatan_001.htm It's a one-off by Robert Perry that was a couple slips over from me at a former marina. A schooner with carbon spars, et cetera. Kicks butt in the Great Schooner Race here in SF Bay.

Probably something you'd like? Unfortunately, a one-off like that will set you back more than a million $$.

That's a nice one. I remember the write-up in CW or SW.


How about this one?

http://www.morrisyachts.com/drawings/m42/

Or this one?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2013.../United-States

Or this?

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/Sailbo...2_gallery.aspx


All beautiful classic looks, fast, sturdy. You just seem to need money to get in. I wonder why a mainstream production boat doesn't try the classic lines thing. Probably because twin aft queen berths sell better, I imagine.
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Old 11-03-2013, 19:08   #72
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

I prefer this one





The problem with these boats is that for a 55ft they have the interior space of a 42ft mass production boat and cost 5 or 6 times more
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Old 11-03-2013, 19:14   #73
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Something to think about, from my one-design racing days: even when two boats with identical sails and underbodies are racing, one boat can be made to point higher than the other if/when the crew is able to keep it flat. Some of that has to do with sail trim, certainly, but it also has a great deal to do with crew weight on the rail. A flat boat will out-point a boat dipping its rail, all other factors being equal, and all sails being trim (in other words, the flat boat isn't pinching.) The boat with its rail in the water may be going faster, but its VMG will usually be worse.

If you understand this basic principle, you'll understand why some full-keeled boats can out-point some fin-keeled boats. A stiff boat will tend to out-point a tender boat. This is also why crisp sails tend to out-point saggy sails, because saggy sails tend to make a boat, any boat, more tender.
Very well presented point.

Before they both get heeled they are limited only by efficiency of their underbodies, all other things kept same.

Racing hull designers did notice.

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Old 11-03-2013, 19:16   #74
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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The jerk of a cat does take some getting used to... it's a quick subtle motion...
It depends on the cat and the weather and the point of sail. In heavy weather going to windward offshore my wife would have to wedge herself into the galley to hold the teakettle on the stove because when we went off a wave the kettle would shoot straight up and off the stove--the fiddles wouldn't hold it down. But, running off in the same conditions, it was like we were on rails and very smooth. In those same conditions, the heavy mono would be more comfortable going to windward, but would be rolling uncomfortably off the wind. Horses for courses...
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Old 11-03-2013, 19:40   #75
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Check this boat out, B. (...) Probably something you'd like? Unfortunately, a one-off like that will set you back more than a million $$.
Once they get beyond my present financial reach, I go big.

Hetairos only.

Dykstra, alloy, carbon, canoe body plus lifting bulb keel. And if she looks a bit old-fashioned: well, well, I would live with that for the 25 knots she can make.

http://www.boatinternational.com/bi-...untains-p2.jpg

Hetairos – the cutting-edge sailing yacht that is both innovative and retrospective

Now what are the upcoming lotto numbers PLS?

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