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Old 08-03-2013, 08:53   #46
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Originally Posted by I.Grind View Post
What did your boat draw dockhead? Jolie Brise draws 10'2". I think that explains why she could point as high. It's great she could keep up. I couldn't find her SA, but I'm sure it's a lot. Nice to see she's being put through her paces rather than wasting away a a dock.
Jolie Brise lives on the Hamble near my mooring, but she is very well used -- I've run into her in different ports in the UK and France besides underway. She is in tip top condition and is sailed by a very skilled crew. She is a sight to behold underway.

She is owned by a school and according to this: Jolie Brise Home Dauntsey's School -- is supposed to be used primarily to give pupils sailing experience, but I have not noticed pupils on board; she has had a crack crew on board every time I have crossed paths with her.

10 feet, eh? That's 2 1/2 more than us. I can't imagine the wetted surface with a full keel and that kind of draft -- must be vast. How much sail area does it take to push that through the water? It doesn't quite compute to me that such a design can go so well to windward, but as others have said -- the particular skill of the designer counts here, and of course the skill of the crew and helmsman also.

All I know is that when I was sailing with her, we were pointing at 37 degrees to the apparent wind, which is usually our best VMG to windward, and we were hauling a$s at more than 9 knots, and we could not get away from her, neither by speed nor angle.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:08   #47
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If she was designed for the Fastnet, I'm sure she's still plenty fast. There's nothing slow about gaff rigs, they're very powerful, it's the handicap for all that rag that kills them in racing. How high you can point, and how fast you go to weather are are totally separate functions. Everything is a compromise on a boat to excel at one thing you must make a sacrifice somewhere else.

I have always noticed that a boat you love always seems to point as high as you need it to go. The more you enjoy the boat, the less it seems to matter that you have to sail back and forth a bunch to get where you want to go.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:20   #48
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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If she was designed for the Fastnet, I'm sure she's still plenty fast. There's nothing slow about gaff rigs, they're very powerful, it's the handicap for all that rag that kills them in racing. How high you can point, and how fast you go to weather are are totally separate functions. Everything is a compromise on a boat to excel at one thing you must make a sacrifice somewhere else.

I have always noticed that a boat you love always seems to point as high as you need it to go. The more you enjoy the boat, the less it seems to matter that you have to sail back and forth a bunch to get where you want to go.
She was designed as a workboat, actually -- in France -- a pilot cutter. Then was actually used as a fishing boat before she was bought by English yachtsmen for racing. I suppose her rig has been modified many times.

Can't agree with your last point. Although it is true that most cruising boats (especially loaded down with cruising gear) aren't really able to make a usable amount of VMG dead upwind, that doesn't mean that it's ok. In my opinion. My previous boat was a pig upwind and that translated directly into motoring much of the time. 50% of true wind is going to be ahead of the beam, and more than 50% of apparent wind, after all! Having a boat with some ability upwind really changes everything, especially, the amount of time you spend sailing versus motoring.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:36   #49
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

And to add to the mix, how heavy is a heavyweight boat, and at what year are fins we are talking about in comparison.
Ours First 42 is now 30 years old, not a new boat, but sports a heavy fin keel, around 10k and boat weight at 24k dry across the scales, cruising mode, we are tipping the scales at 28 thousand.,
She's a deep keel , with a spade rudder, and points throu 80 to 90 degrees depending on conditions,
NOW, on the other side, buying a Columbia 5 5, 30feet in length , 6foot beem and a full keel , and I'd go to bet the 5 5 will out perform the first on all points of sail,
But would I dare take the 5 5 offshore, not a chance, as far as taking the First 42 offshore,
The boat was built for it. And the idea of all fin keel boats being a rough ride in open seas, BS.
Many days the wife and I would spend time playing cards in the cockpit while under auto helm, and clicking along at 10 to12 knots of comfortable ride..
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:55   #50
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

The mid 80's Benni 42 is one of the better boats out there. Wonderful sailer and goes upwind very well. As much as I loved the windward leg during races I certainly don't like it offshore but I want a boat that can sail on all points of sail. There is lots of light air out there and sometimes its forward of the beam so having a boat that sails well upwind is in my mind the only way to go.
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Old 08-03-2013, 13:40   #51
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

And it all depends on area to cruise... If on the west coast, and headed to Mexico, and maybe the south pacific, about any boat will get you there, but if your wants are to explore out of the way countries in less traveled areas of the world, you need to chose a boat with all-round capabilities.
The phrase has come up many times about. " real sailors don't sail to weather" or if you want to go to weather, take a 747, and all is good in kidding around but in reality, much of the world is not located in the band around the equatorial areas.
To gettin these areas, you need to go to weather, and sometimes for thousands of miles....
When we traveled the north pacific , Canada, and Alaska, we would have been in quite a fix if our boat didn't sail to weather. And doing it within an acceptable amount of time.
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Old 08-03-2013, 15:10   #52
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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Can't agree with your last point. Although it is true that most cruising boats (especially loaded down with cruising gear) aren't really able to make a usable amount of VMG dead upwind, that doesn't mean that it's ok. In my opinion. My previous boat was a pig upwind and that translated directly into motoring much of the time. 50% of true wind is going to be ahead of the beam, and more than 50% of apparent wind, after all! Having a boat with some ability upwind really changes everything, especially, the amount of time you spend sailing versus motoring.
I don't think you understood what I.Grand was saying. He wasn't extolling any virtues of a full keel, he was saying that owners of any type of boat typically are satisfied with upwind performance as long as they like the boat in general. I'm happy with my boat, you probably wouldn't be, but you can't say that you disagree that I am in fact happy with my boat, you have no say in the matter.
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Old 08-03-2013, 20:31   #53
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Trouble is, full keel boats are often all lumped together, as are fin keel boats. Truly depends on designer. Luders designed the heck out of my 33, and it goes upwind great. However, not nearly as tight as C&Cs in our Weds night fleet, but that's a function of outboard sheeting. 5 foot draft helps.
Plenty of piggish fin keel boats out there I can sail circles around, and plenty that have a more uncomfortable ride. Lots of factors go into it.

Fact is, though- a deep, narrow foil will develop better lift for upwind work, all else being equal. Look outside an airplane window at the wing sometime and you'll see. Reason I like my boat is that for the money I had to spend, a full keel classic would give me the best value, and I chose one designed as a fast boat for its time.

Money no object, the only reason I can think of to have a full keel boat is classic looks (which Hinckley and Morris maintain with fin keel boats) and advantage of attached rudder (structural, and resistance to line snagging). For those of us who don't yet have unlimited budgets, and are buying vintage boats, full keel boats often are sturdier used boats.
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Old 08-03-2013, 23:43   #54
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

The sailplan determines the pointing ability. In this regard flatter cut sail points better than deep, fewer sails points better than more, of all main sails lug points highest (becouse the mast isn't affacting on the sail) but has other drawbacks.
Aspect ratio of the sails (and keel) affect to the amount of generated lift to drag ratio, so any foil regardless of the shape can generate the same amount of lift but with more or less drag.
The hull and it's appendices affects how much of the pointing ability can be used to our advantage. Windage, wave resistance, the sea state even the helm and the helmsman have also their affect to leeway and how much we make it is more complicated matter.
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Old 08-03-2013, 23:53   #55
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@argyle38-thats exactly what I was getting at. Thanks.
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Old 09-03-2013, 00:09   #56
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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I don't think you understood what I.Grand was saying. He wasn't extolling any virtues of a full keel, he was saying that owners of any type of boat typically are satisfied with upwind performance as long as they like the boat in general. I'm happy with my boat, you probably wouldn't be, but you can't say that you disagree that I am in fact happy with my boat, you have no say in the matter.
I was speaking only for myself. I would never presume to tell anyone what he should or should not be happy with, naturally. To each his own!
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:06   #57
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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I wouldn't like to run aground on a fin-keeled boat with a falling tide.

Not a problem for all

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Old 09-03-2013, 06:20   #58
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

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We all know that newer performance boats have fin keels, but the OP asked whether a full keel "will go to weather," and the best answer is that it depends on the boat. Some full keel race boats will tack through 80 degrees. The Charles W Morgan tacks through 150 degrees. There are many factors: hull shape, rig, sails, etc. It's best to talk about specific boats.
I couldn't agree more. Lest all the youngsters forget, we used to race 12-Meter boats in the America's Cup with long, rakish keel projections. They actually did go to weather. TO say all such designs are inferior to all fin designgs would not be correct. Our 1984 Nic looks a lot like this on the bottom and we regularly kick many late model boats in our size class. It is certainly a fact that all non-fin keels are not equal. Some are real dogs. We bought ours for the mass and stability as well as the Camper name. I was prepared for ours to woof but was elated to see it go to weather well.




















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Old 09-03-2013, 06:32   #59
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My life sailing has consisted of entire life, but few boats. Range in size of 12 ft, 24 ft, 27 ft, 33 ft.

All were/are fin keel (ok 12 ft is daggerboard)

I have not sailed full keeled boats before as none of my friends have one. What would the difference be in regards to going to weather? I know gentlemen do not do that, but what if? Sometimes I feel like I'm always sailing to weather:-) and I'm glad I have a fin keel. What is the real difference? How much higher can I point with my Cal 27 than would a similar length full keel point?
If you like how your Cal 27 sails, many of the fuller keel sailing will be just fine. Wave, sheet angle,...all affect pointing. Just make sure you keep in mind the other important factors in selecting your sailboat (safety, space, looks....). Our Pearson 385 (modified full keel) points well enough for me.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:54   #60
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

remember that all fin keels are not created equal.. ours is large enough to hide a car behind it..
and on another note,
because a boat states it draws 4 feet, it dosent mean it has a 4 foot keel.. my sons Choy Lee 31 offshore called for about 3.5 feet of draft but the keel was only about "1" foot off the bottom of the boat.. I think you'll find this true with many full keel boats.. the dept of the keel is small..
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