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Old 06-03-2013, 17:41   #16
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
I wouldn't like to run aground on a fin-keeled boat with a falling tide.

There's a world of difference between a fin keel, a bulb keel, and a canting keel.
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Old 06-03-2013, 17:41   #17
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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Heavens! IODs are post-WWII, and Shields are an early-60's improvement on that design. Hardly "knockoff counterparts."
Sorry about my choice of words, Bash, but I think we're saying the same thing. I've raced Shields and IODs, which basically borrow their hull designs from the pre-war period, albeit with Marconi rigs, and they both outpoint my fin keeled, spade rudder cruising boat. I also remember racing a New York 30 (1905 42' Herreschoff design) that maybe didn't point quite as high as a contemporary race boat, but boy was it sweet (and fast).
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Old 06-03-2013, 18:01   #18
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
Sorry about my choice of words, Bash, but I think we're saying the same thing. I've raced Shields and IODs, and they both outpoint my fin keeled, spade rudder cruising boat. I also remember racing a New York 30 (1905 42' Herreschoff design) that maybe didn't point quite as high as a contemporary race boat, but boy was it sweet (and fast).
Agreed! The problem with those keels wasn't that they couldn't point. It was more about the increased wetted surface increasing drag. With a one-design boat like a Shields or an IOD, that makes no difference whatsoever. (Race a Shields against a modern sportboat, however, especially one that will plane, and there's no contest.)

But you are quite correct: some full-keel designs point exceptionally high. If only the Shields were a bit less sinkable!
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Old 06-03-2013, 18:15   #19
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

Here is our 1984 Camper & Nicholson 58. 55,000 disp. 15-7 beam; 6-8 draft CB up; 14 feet CB down. 45 feet WL. Even without the CB, I was very pleasantly surprised at its pointing ability. We keep up on speed and point with some of the late model hard-core big racers. Auto-pilot is even better untill seas are rocking. Fantastic on a reach too. We rarely drop the CB but it cuts the leeway down and reduces helm a bit. In the mid to upper 20s we reach 10 to 11 on the main alone. 9 to 10 to weather in a fair breeze and flat water. Slow to turn and accelerate but great passage maker.
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Old 06-03-2013, 18:32   #20
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

The Nic 58 is more of a long fin with skeg rudder, doesn't quite make it as a full keel boat.
Comments about sailing abilities and sailing to weather on full keelers are mostly correct but a bigger question is why manufacterers are no longer making them. My view is that the newer designed fin keelers are just better all around cruising sailboats. Nothing wrong with a 65 Mustang for sure but its not in the same catagory as a new model.
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Old 06-03-2013, 18:36   #21
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

Someone missed the IOR era of sailboat design saying that fin keeled boats are flat bottomed.

I can't pull the picture out to post it. About half way down a picture of a San Juan 24 blue and red hull. I'm not sure there's much if any form stability on that boat.

http://www.sj21class.org/pdf/clark_boat.pdf
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Old 06-03-2013, 19:53   #22
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IMHO above 6-7kts true wind, the shape vs length (aspect) of the underwater foil has much less to do with pointing ANGLE than sheeting geometry and the relative positions of the underwater and above water centers of effort (CE) which are the primary determinants of pointing angle limits. Upwind VMG against various true wind speeds is a much more complicated issue. The OP's question was restricted to pointing ANGLE vs keel design. So, my answer is, "if you don't care too much about upwind VMG, pick the underwater foil shape that simultaneously minimizes draft and leeward slippage. If you want to go upwind fast, you must consider every conceivable engineering tradeoff both above and below the waterline.
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Old 06-03-2013, 20:29   #23
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?


We tack through about 100-110 degrees, my hubby says we will do better with better sails. We are not full but a modified keel.

I love this from a boat design thread --
I have had it explained to me that the rig and wind determine how close to the wind you can point, and the hull and sea conditions determine your speed made good to windward. To cite an extreme example, an efficient rig may drive a normal hull at 40% of the true (moderate) wind speed in smoothish water, whereas a very "slippery" hull will allow the boat to become an apparent wind machine, adding enough of its forward speed to the true wind speed to generate an increased apparent wind, greatly increasing its speed through the water and to windward, but at the cost of having to bear off to keep the apparent wind from moving too far forward.
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Old 06-03-2013, 20:45   #24
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

This keel is about as full as it gets. Tacks through 100 degrees on the compass while pinched up tight as possible. Add a few more degrees for side slip. Goes to weather fine for recreational sailing. If I really want to get somewhere to windward, a little bit of engine power makes it point like an racer.

I do not mean to discredit the fantastic Westsail 32 design. However, we made friends with a couple on a Westsail while gunk holing in Panope for a month. It did not matter weather we were motoring, sailing, upwind or downwind - the folks on the Westsail always described Panope as "the black streak". The Westsail was carrying at least twice (maybe three times) as much crap as we were. Everyone was having a great time.

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Old 07-03-2013, 06:31   #25
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
I wouldn't like to run aground on a fin-keeled boat with a falling tide.

Okay, my boar has a longish fin keel but that is just obscene. Dont let your children or anyone with a delicate constitution see that pic, please!
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:48   #26
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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Originally Posted by boatsail View Post
I have an encapsulated lead keel, so it's not really about the bolts that I ask this question.

In Breaking Seas, Glenn talks about his boat and it seemed to have much trouble going to windward. In the Pardy's book, Cruising Sarifina they talk about beating others to weather. This is one of the main things that got me thinking of the topic. That and I'm getting new sails in the next month or two, so I figure I would be able to point better than I can right now with nice tight sails (mine need to be replaced).
I've read Breaking Seas (great read, BTW), as well as Pardy's book 'Heavy Weather Tactics'. I also have the same type of boat that Glenn was sailing, Downeast 38. I think by far the biggest difference between the two situations is the experience of the skipper. The Pardy's were 100,000+ mile ocean voyagers while Glenn was on his first cruise with not a whole lot of inshore experience beforehand. You can't even compare.

In general I believe that with the right combination of wind, waves and current, any boat can caught needing their engine to claw off a lee shore, if an abundance of conservative seamanship was not observed beforehand. (There but for the grace of god go I, in other words.) However, in reading Glenn's account, there are several places where he wasn't doing himself any favors. The first and most obvious was being too close to a lee shore with wind and waves building, even Glenn admits this in the book. But as far as getting the best VMG away from the shore, I think he made the rookie mistake of thinking that he needed more sail up in order to power through the waves. He had his 130 or 140% genoa flying, which any racing sailor knows is not what you set when making for the windward mark in heavy air and sea. It will make you heel too much, negating he effect of your keel (whatever the keel configuration) and you go sideways. Glenn remarks that he had green water over the lee rail. This boat has nearly four feet of freeboard amidships. A Downeast 38 should NEVER have its rail in the water. That is way too much heel angle and going over that far you might as well be trying to sail a trawler. He was sailing sideways. The cutter rig can point reasonably well with just the main and staysail, since with that rig it approximates a ~5/6 fractional rig. If a little more power is needed, a ~95% working jib will work well without sacrificing wind angle too much. Most importantly, you won't be heeling near as much as with a big Genny, so you can actually go somewhat the same direction as your bow is pointed.

In general though, yes full keel boats will sail to weather, it's just a mater of how close to the wind are you talking about. Square riggers can sail to weather, just not as much! Comparing similar designs, a full keel boat will almost never sail as close to the wind as a fin keel. The fin keels has more of a hydrodynamic shape that generates some level of it's own lift in the water. A full keel typically does not have this type of shape and operates on a much simpler principle of lateral resistance to slide slip. A full keel will also have more wetted surface, so for a given sail plan and wind, you will be going slower, so in light air (less than about 6 knots), going to weather is even more difficult.

As with any boat, to get the most out of it you have to understand it's strengths and weaknesses and speed and windward ability are not typically the strengths of a full keel boat. That means that if you are passing a shoreline and the wind and swell are blowing onshore and building, you should probably plan to head farther offshore, even if it means adding a day to your trip. After all one of the advantages of a big heavy full keeled boat is comfort at sea, so use that advantage and spend the extra day, hopefully without drama. If that doesn't mesh will with your cruising style, maybe a faster, more weatherly boat might be a better choice.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:11   #27
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

Yes the fin will sail better to weather, and the usual balanced spade rudder will be a lot more pleasant than a skeg or keel mounted one. Hard to compare, as mentioned, big difference between a tahiti ketch and a Alberg 30! My Hans Christian would tack through maybe 130 degrees on a good day, far worse in lighter winds and a chop. The fin keel racers I've been on would tack through 90 degrees. That's a 40 degree difference!
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Old 07-03-2013, 16:27   #28
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The Nic 58 is more of a long fin with skeg rudder, doesn't quite make it as a full keel boat.
Comments about sailing abilities and sailing to weather on full keelers are mostly correct but a bigger question is why manufacterers are no longer making them. My view is that the newer designed fin keelers are just better all around cruising sailboats. Nothing wrong with a 65 Mustang for sure but its not in the same catagory as a new model.
I think the majority of boats are sold to people who primily day sail. Most of these buyers want a fin. Boat makers produce to demand. The fin is easier to maneuver especially in close quarters in a marina. Our Nic is a a beast to turn into the slip. We must plan for the wind speed and direction and plan for near zero boat speed and a long patient wait for the bow to roatate around. The moving turn radius is about 120 feet so a lot of finesse is required in narrow waterways. I raced a fin keel Heritage One-Ton for 18 years. It would turn on its center and the rudder could cut 90 degrees. The Nic has only +/- 15 degrees and no bow thruster. The other side of this of course is that it tracks really well even in lumpy stuff. The long keel will let you fore-reach as a method of toughing out a storm. Many fin keels will not. We are less prone to a round-up & broach than a fin. We are not a full keel for sure but we are very far from a fin on the Nic.
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Old 07-03-2013, 16:39   #29
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Re: full vs fin??? Will it go to weather?

I've never owned a traditional long full keel, but the Aage Nielsen was quite long with a cutaway forefoot and a rudder on the aft end of the keel. She sailed beautifully, and tracked well, but the best tracking boat I've ever owned was a 31-footer with a long fin keel and a massive skeg hung rudder. In heavy air conditions downwind she would surf off at over 10-12 knots and the faster we went the better the steering got. It felt like power steering at speed, two fingers on the tiller a lot of the time. She felt so secure downwind in heavy weather that we really pushed her and made some good runs. The very first sail in her we made 85 nautical miles in 10 hours, which isn't bad on a 31-footer. On the other hand, the deeper, fuller keel on the Nielsen was much more comfortable offshore going to windward. She would just sort of squish through the seas, not getting knocked off course. One time we tacked all the way from Maine to the Cape Cod Canal (about 160 nm as the crow flies) into about 20-25 knots of wind the whole way, tacking every hour overnight, and we never missed a meal or any sleep. It was really easy to navigate--just sight dead into the wind, and that was where we were going. That's when a full keel is really nice.
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Old 07-03-2013, 20:04   #30
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Re: Full vs Fin? Will it go to Weather?

I suspect that a boat's ability to point will, in general, have more to do with the condition of its canvas and the ability of its crew than the shape and / or length of its keel. At the risk of sounding like an ass (and I have a knack for doing that), if you are predicating your choice of boat on its ability (or otherwise) to sail to windward or on its keel type, I think you should review your selection criteria.
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