Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[newhaul]

Ok here is one trying you don't want to do with a fin keel how about cleaning and painting the hull

[robert sailor]

If you put a jar with no lid in water upside down it will not fill up because of the trapped air. Sailboats that roll and don't stay inverted too long should be able to be saved assuming a good skipper. Of course that begs the thought that if he was a good skipper he might have not put the yacht in a position to roll in the first place.

[robert sailor]

Damn I got a double after the site told me it wasn't posted, sorry about that. R

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Ok here is one trying you don't want to do with a fin keel how about cleaning and painting the hull

Called careening your boat..very common years ago with budget cruisers and yes with some experience and care it can be done on some fin keeled boats.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Called careening your boat..very common years ago with budget cruisers and yes with some experience and care it can be done on some fin keeled boats.

I know its called careening also known of as cheap short haulout to clean and paint. saves me about 300 bucks a year on my islander ( just to let everyone know this is not my boat ) but it is a 24 ft islander

[restless.cd40]

Don't forget the Allied Seawind II. 32 ft. Ketch. It has everything you want and will cost around $35,000. Much faster than you think both on and off the wind. Spacious inside and forgiving sidedecks with high gunnels. Read their stories on the ASWII site. I owned Flicka and she won first in class in 2002 Baha Ha Ha.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by restless.cd40

Don't forget the Allied Seawind II. 32 ft. Ketch. It has everything you want and will cost around $35,000. Much faster than you think both on and off the wind. Spacious inside and forgiving sidedecks with high gunnels. Read their stories on the ASWII site. I owned Flicka and she won first in class in 2002 Baha Ha Ha.

Was she the only boat in the class?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by restless.cd40

Don't forget the Allied Seawind II. 32 ft. Ketch. It has everything you want and will cost around $35,000. Much faster than you think both on and off the wind. Spacious inside and forgiving sidedecks with high gunnels. Read their stories on the ASWII site. I owned Flicka and she won first in class in 2002 Baha Ha Ha.

Considering that the HaHa is a rally and not a race, and that motoring is allowed whenever wanted, and that there are not published "race results", I'm underwhelmed.

Not knocking the boat, for I've never sailed one, but your claim makes little sense.

Jim

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by restless.cd40

Don't forget the Allied Seawind II. 32 ft. Ketch. It has everything you want and will cost around $35,000. Much faster than you think both on and off the wind. Spacious inside and forgiving sidedecks with high gunnels. Read their stories on the ASWII site. I owned Flicka and she won first in class in 2002 Baha Ha Ha.

are you sure it was 2002. There was only one seawind boat in that race and it was a cat.

Also one of the few years that the results are not available
Baja Ha-Ha 2002 Roster
Here is a list of all years
Baja Ha-Ha Cruisers Rally: Sailing from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas

edit. Found it and was the winner of the agave division in 2001
http://www.baja-haha.com/Alumni/2001Finishers.html

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The stability curves are for boats that don't have tons of water in them. A lot of boats, if not all, sink if inverted. Most sailboats are "knocked down" not inverted. The stories of 360's in sailboats are considered exaggerations of knockdowns by most rational people. I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Even if a boat righted after a 360 it would have enough water in it to make it very unstable and would roll to extremes, taking on more and more water until it sinks. I can't back that up with experience, thank God, so take it for what it's worth.

Real life story: some years ago, our friends Doug and Nancy M. were delivering a Valiant 40 from NZ back to the states. A couple of days out, between NZ and the Kermadecs the wx got pretty nasty. They hove the boat to, with a backed storm jib and deeply reefed main and were lying pretty quietly with the boat buttoned up and them below decks. They heard an abnormally loud wave approaching, and it apparently struck them more or less on the beam. The boat promptly inverted... and stayed there... long enough that they were stuffing pillows into the Dorades, stemming the rapid inrush of water. Nancy had suffered a severe facial injury and was bleeding copiously, and they were a bit concerned. No clock was consulted, but later Doug estimated that they were inverted for at least a minute, likely longer, and then with a loud bang the rod rigging parted, the mast collapsed and the boat rapidly came back to her feet. A fair amount of water below, but between bailing and pumping they got her dried out.

A mayday was issued and by good chance there was a RNZN frigate fairly nearby, and they came to the scene. Took Nancy off right away and got her first to their sick bay and then heloed back to a hospital in NZ where a plastic surgeon put her back together. Meanwhile the Kiwis (bless them) didn't insist that Doug abandon the vessel as some rescue folks do. Rather they sent a diver to help untangle the mess of rod, sails and mast, then sent a lot of diesel in jugs, and finally "loaned" him a volunteer crewman, and together they got the boat back to NZ.

So, it seems that all boats that invert do not sink, and that given the right sea conditions even boats considered quite seaworthy can come agley. A cool head and very experienced sailors coupled with fortuitous location of a naval vessel turned a disaster into a survivable event. The boat eventually was repaired and IIRC returned successfully to the USA.

Nancy, who sadly passed away last year, bore only minor scarring. Had it not been for the prompt attention from the Kiwi doctors, the results would likely have been disfiguring, so again, bless the Kiwi navy... real seamen.

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

That's why we have hatches and washboards and strong portlights. If the boat is sealed up for heavy weather it's not going to take on much water. Sure, the cockpit will fill up, but that's not going to sink the boat. Of course if the mast rips the coach roof apart during a 360 rollover then all bets are off.

But if we sail conservatively and stay away from hurricanes, the chances of a rollover or even a knockdown are pretty minimal.

Well, it doesn't take a hurricane to produce sea conditions which can knock down or roll a cruising boat.

I have experienced a knockdown (F9 in the North Sea; large breaking seas), but thank God have never been rolled. But contrary to what someone posted above, getting rolled in storm conditions is not that exceptionally rare. Other than some cases with Open 60's and other extreme racing boats, I've never heard of a monohull cruising boat with an intact keel, remaining inverted. Losing the rig is pretty common in such cases, but not sinking.


I guess the Fastnet '79 is a decent statistical sample: 100 boats (1/3 of the fleet) knocked down, 77 rolled, only 5 sunk. None remained inverted. And there were a lot of yachts which are less stable than the ones typically used today, and by cruisers. The storm was not a hurricane, but a bad North Atlantic storm.

[picklesandjesse]

So what are we learning here.... nothing. My current boat is a 33ft trimaran and does 26kts but the next might be a 28ft long keel Great Dane that's for sale. They all have their idiosyncrasies and you just have to live with them. This is not and never will be a perfect world. It's like a marriage. Also a bit of luck involved and being in the right place at the right time. Lucky to still be here to write this crap !!!!

[double u]

...still waiting for the listings of affordable, max 10year old 38-41' long-keelers for sale...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Bilge keels look nice for really shallow areas and large tidal retreats that leave your boat high and dry and still upright, but I have never sailed one. Pretty rare in the US I'd guess and I doubt there is even one in California, but I don't know...
Anyway hope that helps.

After a decade of sailing with bilge keels I am not sure you could tell the difference between a fin and a bilge keeled yacht simply by sailing them unless you are racing around the cans. Back in the real world with ma and pa I suspect their skills, condition of the sails and hull will make a bigger difference.

Originally Posted by Don C L

Oh, ok and the Vega fits in there with a long keel but the forefoot has really been cut away, so it will turn quicker than my boat. I kinda like that if I hit something I will kinda ride up on it, but a more vertical keel will really smack it. That's just me.
VEGA 27 (ALBIN) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Ah, but will an Albin Vega go backwards, the prop location does look rather odd.

Pete

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Tidjian,

It is close attention to charts and looking into the water where it is clear that keep you away from hitting hard bits. I really think hitting something some time is almost inevitable if you cruise in poorly charted waters, or poor visibility conditions. We all try to avoid rocks and coral heads, but, at least ourselves, we have had one hard hit with both of our last two boats, and a few light touches.

Both boats we've done lots of sea miles in have been fin keel, skeg rudder boats. One of them had a flush deck. If, in the size range you are looking at, you can find one that lights your candle and has a flush deck, you may find that a better situation, as your coordination is unlikely to improve, and you will have to go forward at sea, on occasion. When you get to the point of outfitting the boat for the journey, consider central placing for your jackline.

A.

I will most certainly put a centrally placed jackline in. No matter what boat I get she will have a jackline with a strong harness. In an ideal world I will be able to set the line free of obstruction so I could get up anywhere along side the boat from bow to stern. But I suppose that will depend where I am and what I'm doing should I go over. If I go with something like a Columbia 26 she sits 4' off the water which will surely suck climbing back onto. But one will do what one can and hopefully try not to fall off to begin with.