Full Keel to Fin Keel.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Wait, what? Those are our two choices? (I think I would have chosen something like a Dreadnought 32 myself for the heavy full keel extreme, but I guess the IP will work.)
I still say my boat is a graceful third option!
sorry, love these fights...
meet me at the rudder room, I'll buy the beer...

Your boat is a delightful third option, and you know what I like about it? The designer (S&S) was thinking about performance when they drew it. Times have changed but a good boat is always a good boat.

[malbert73]

Ok everyone- we all love our boats and great discussion
But.... whether a boat is comfortable in seas or not, or is fast on passage, depends on many more factors than the keel. The hull shape dictates pretty much all of this.
Having owned both, I can of course say with certainty that in every sea state and breeze my current boat is faster, points better, sails flatter, and also doesn’t pound- compared to my old Luders 33. Its also bigger of course so not a fair comparison.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

thomm225, we've been reading your posts for a while now. It is clear you have the joy of sailing, and the skills it takes to get the most out of the boat you are sailing, which, by the way, is not a full keel cruising boat.

Your Bristol 27 has a short keel (lengthwise) with a cut away fore front. Your rudder is well ahead of the transom, not hung on pintels and gudgeons at the back of the boat. Your boat is narrow and sweet. Don't kid yourself, you have a boat with some performance designed in. Regarding some previous posts, it is more like a miniature version of a 1930's J-Boat, than a Westsail 32.

Yes, a boat with a 6' fin keel might be nice, but don't wish for anything different about your boat, it's fine, enjoy it.

And if you're beating the modern boats, it's because of the sailor, not the boat.

And...You're always "out day sailing" good on you.

It seems we these days call any longish keel boat a full keel. I knew it wasn't a real full keel like the Westsail 32

Calling it a full keel boat does seem to make it more salty though!

As far as pintels and gudgeons and all that stuff, I'm no expert there. Everything I know about boats and being on the water I learned by trail and error even though I did grow up within spitting distance of the Atlantic and Chesapeake Bay. My people were farmers or town folks

Btw thanks for the background on boats like the Bristol 27.

My rudder is well supported though as it seems you probably know.

[sailorladd]

I would think twice about changing to a 6 foot draft fin keel as you will find there is quite difference to steering a fin keel and for cruising, you don't need this type of ultra steering performance, but rather, the ease of steering (a full keel tracks more easily) and also the knowledge that a full keel is part of the hull, as opposed to a fin keel which has concerns re bolts etc... and consider that a 6 foot keel presents difficulties in shallow waters where you may cruise to...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you asking for models of performance cruising boats? Just look at various boats PHRF ratings for a quick comparison.
Value, what does this have to do with the sailing performance on passage?
Size, that one is a tough one to do comparisons with, as the design of the boat and the design rules it may have been designed to have a large affect. Take a Westsail 32 that is 32feet on deck, 27 feet at the waterline, yet fits in a 40 foot berth.


So are you advocating not waiting for a weather window, just plow out and take what you get? In my experience every passage maker takes significant time to watch the weather and pick a window. It's just that a faster boat needs a smaller window.

I'm asking you what you are saying, to prove your claim (7 vs 10 days) with somewhat comparable boats..

And I'm not advocating anything. Waiting for suitable weather is fine but bragging about speed doing that

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It would be nice to have more interior room and a bit more stiffness which most of the fin keelers seem to have.

Many of us love our old full keel boats, but if sailing upwind for hours on end in heavy wind, it might be nice not be sailing on your ear the whole time

I realized again you were original poster. I used to be in your camp with my Luders 33 and said same things said by others- tracking, seakindliness, no pounding, build quality

Well I replaced it with an S&S designed modern classic. Don’t think it pounds more. Heels less by 15 degrees on same points of sail, is faster, doesn’t do the gunwale to gunwale roll downwind. And actually tracks better with separate rudder. And oh I can steer in reverse.
And it draws the same (5 feet) because it’s a CB design. But the lack of heeling and hobbyhorsing relative to my Luders is ridiculously better.

But I had lots of fun in the Luders. Far worse not to have a solid boat or any boat. But your cruising will be changed more than you think, as long as you choose a well designed more modern boat. Yours is a well designed boat and sails as well as that class of design can.

Find a Tartan 37. Shoal draft and sails great

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I realized again you were original poster. I used to be in your camp with my Luders 33 and said same things said by others- tracking, seakindliness, no pounding, build quality

Well I replaced it with an S&S designed modern classic. Don’t think it pounds more. Heels less by 15 degrees on same points of sail, is faster, doesn’t do the gunwale to gunwale roll downwind. And actually tracks better with separate rudder. And oh I can steer in reverse.
And it draws the same (5 feet) because it’s a CB design. But the lack of heeling and hobbyhorsing relative to my Luders is ridiculously better.

But I had lots of fun in the Luders. Far worse not to have a solid boat or any boat. But your cruising will be changed more than you think, as long as you choose a well designed more modern boat. Yours is a well designed boat and sails as well as that class of design can.

Find a Tartan 37. Shoal draft and sails great

I really like the Tartan 37. There's one at my dock called Base Runner. I've admired it for at least 6 years

The thing is I could buy a Tartan 37 if I'd commit to the cruising thing and stop paying for an apartment over here. I'm considering it

I'm still trying to understand a boat like the Formosa 46 I was just on today. (see thread on Monohull sailboats) Geez, it's almost an apartment in itself with shower and everything and at 33,000 lbs and 13' beam it feel like a home

But then there are my 3 National Geographic Magazines that tell the story of Robin Lee Graham and Patti. I've had them since I was in my late 20's.

It was my dream even when I lived in land locked Memphis, TN (but we did have the tugs to watch pushing barges up the Mississippi) and now I have a similar boat (to the first one and maybe the Luders also) but maybe I'm living in the past!! Just a little.....

And as far as me being the original poster I thought I had been blocked. So the OP here (me) was out of Chicago (IP address) and another was out of Canada but we are who we are so one of my good "friends" here reported me for being me and talking what I like to talk about with possibly a bit of an edge to it which he or she recognized. Then Ann let me know that I had not been blocked but couldn't have multiple names. So here we are again. Otherwise I could have continued but it's no fun not being yourself

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

I would think twice about changing to a 6 foot draft fin keel as you will find there is quite difference to steering a fin keel and for cruising, you don't need this type of ultra steering performance, but rather, the ease of steering (a full keel tracks more easily) and also the knowledge that a full keel is part of the hull, as opposed to a fin keel which has concerns re bolts etc... and consider that a 6 foot keel presents difficulties in shallow waters where you may cruise to...

Thanks for reminding me. I keep thinking I'm a sailboat racer, but I'm not these day.

If I want competition, there's plenty of that on the online chess sites and those guys (and gals) are as ruthless as sailboat racers

[wingssail]

I think it is hilarious that we get such contradictory statements of fact:

Originally Posted by sailorladd

I would think twice about changing to a 6 foot draft fin keel as you will find there is quite difference to steering a fin keel and for cruising, you don't need this type of ultra steering performance, but rather, the ease of steering (a full keel tracks more easily) and also the knowledge that a full keel is part of the hull, as opposed to a fin keel which has concerns re bolts etc... and consider that a 6 foot keel presents difficulties in shallow waters where you may cruise to..

Originally Posted by malbert73

I used to be in your camp with my Luders 33 and said same things said by others- tracking, seakindliness, no pounding, build quality

Well I replaced it with an S&S designed modern classic. Don’t think it pounds more. Heels less by 15 degrees on same points of sail, is faster, doesn’t do the gunwale to gunwale roll downwind. And actually tracks better with separate rudder. And oh I can steer in reverse.

Two guys, one with an opinion about two types of boats, one with experience with two types of boats.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

I'm asking you what you are saying, to prove your claim (7 vs 10 days) with somewhat comparable boats..

And I'm not advocating anything. Waiting for suitable weather is fine but bragging about speed doing that

How do you see this as bragging? Speed in this context had nothing to do with racing. It has to do with reducing weather risk by reducing exposure time on a passage. A boat that is 1 kt faster than another one does about 25 miles a day more. A 10 day passage gives you 250 miles. 250 miles is around 2 days. Pick any set of speed numbers you like.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Paul L

How do you see this as bragging? Speed in this context had nothing to do with racing. It has to do with reducing weather risk by reducing exposure time on a passage. A boat that is 1 kt faster than another one does about 25 miles a day more. A 10 day passage gives you 250 miles. 250 miles is around 2 days. Pick any set of speed numbers you like.

And other boat is 1 knot faster becouse.. it's bigger.
Everybodys passage times are pretty much predictable by the hull speed. No matter what's the boat. Take a look at ARC stats and omit pure racers.

[Pauls]

Thomm, if you want to really have a good grasp of trade offs in hull design, including long vs fin keels, the best source BY FAR is to read "Seawothiness the Forgotten Factor" by Marchaj. Marchaj was a national champion sailor, an internationally recognized aerodynamicist, a consultant to 12 meter teams. He authored college level texts on sailing aerodymanics and hydrodynamics. This book is readable. When you finish it you will understand more about the trade offs in different aspects of yacht design than 99% of the sailors out there.

The truth is that you know what you want out of a boat and you know how you intend to use it. For this reason you're by far the best person to make decisions on what is best for you. If you take the time to understand what's in Marchaj's book you'll be able to evaluate different designs with a superior level of understanding.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

And other boat is 1 knot faster becouse.. it's bigger.
Everybodys passage times are pretty much predictable by the hull speed. No matter what's the boat. Take a look at ARC stats and omit pure racers.

If you mean by hull speed the theorectical hull speed based on static waterline, then we'll have to disagree. A better estimate of differences between boats might be PHRF rating.
Of course, in the cruising world 50 ft boats are faster than 30 foot boats on passage. If you look in basic 5 or 8 ft categories, like 30-38, and 39-47ft groups, there is a lot of differences in actual daily average runs.

Take Hudson Force 50 at 26 tons and a PHRF rating of 138 and compare to a Jenneau Sun Oydessa at 72 rating at 14 tons. Which one will be faster on a typical 7-10 day passage?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Thomm, if you want to really have a good grasp of trade offs in hull design, including long vs fin keels, the best source BY FAR is to read "Seawothiness the Forgotten Factor" by Marchaj. Marchaj was a national champion sailor, an internationally recognized aerodynamicist, a consultant to 12 meter teams. He authored college level texts on sailing aerodymanics and hydrodynamics. This book is readable. When you finish it you will understand more about the trade offs in different aspects of yacht design than 99% of the sailors out there.

The truth is that you know what you want out of a boat and you know how you intend to use it. For this reason you're by far the best person to make decisions on what is best for you. If you take the time to understand what's in Marchaj's book you'll be able to evaluate different designs with a superior level of understanding.

Great idea!

I have that book sitting here about 14" from my computer.

I bought it a few years ago and after reading lots of it I wanted a Contessa 32 with it's AVS of around 156 degrees!

It also reassured me about my present boat with it's Capsize Screening Formula of 1.71

I know the CSF is not an exact science, but I've witnessed how my boat does in strong winds. I've allowed it to roll over as far as it wants to without reducing sail and it will roll way over until it starts to dump wind out of the sails

Capsizing and pitchpoling beach cats repeatedly over 12 years teaches you how things are different as the sail gets closer to the water. When capsizing a beach cat at the apex (with you on the upper hull or trapped out standing on the upper hull) sometimes there's a pause and you can look around a bit from your high perch before crashing/diving into the water while disconnecting from your trap line

On my boat, the Bristol with it's narrow beam and 2600 lb ballast it rolls to maybe 50 degrees and stops as the wind comes off the sails and the ballast equalizes things. It doesn't sail forward very well like this but it keeps moving. As I reduce sail, the boat picks up speed as it rights itself

I really screwed things up on the day in the video below. I hadn't slept well and decided to head back the 35 miles to home using the fresh wind from the front that passed during the night, but I couldn't fix my jammed roller furler. I thought I'd be able to once on the move away from the anchorage but no dice.

I had a failed main halyard also and tried to fix it several time going forward. The boat got way sideways but the ballast held it okay. Wind are near 29 knots

I finally decided to wait and drop the (jib) sail after I got into my creek. A few hours later

Quick note here, I was thankful my destination was downwind because it would have been tough to sail upwind in this on my boat, but I split two boats headed upwind on this day and one was a 40' fin keel boat and he looked to be on rails blasting upwind! (a bit off the wind) The other was 40' plus also a design similar to mine but he was pinching a bit and hobbyhorsing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agtdrmAqojs

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you mean by hull speed the theorectical hull speed based on static waterline, then we'll have to disagree. A better estimate of differences between boats might be PHRF rating.
Of course, in the cruising world 50 ft boats are faster than 30 foot boats on passage. If you look in basic 5 or 8 ft categories, like 30-38, and 39-47ft groups, there is a lot of differences in actual daily average runs.

Take Hudson Force 50 at 26 tons and a PHRF rating of 138 and compare to a Jenneau Sun Oydessa at 72 rating at 14 tons. Which one will be faster on a typical 7-10 day passage?

Jeanneau with similar waterline is 410, costs three times more compared to HF50 and is still waiting for weather window