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Old 07-10-2019, 15:24   #106
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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Originally Posted by slap View Post
My impression is that it happened to Jeff_H's parents Vanguard when it was fairly new.
Strange.

I have lots of sailing experience, and I've complete maybe 450 or more buoy races on beach cats plus 30-40 distance races

I've owned 6-8 small power boats, but I didn't know crap about having a boat that has a 4' keel I cannot pull up in 2011 when I bought this one

I didn't know anything about getting a boat into a slip. All my boats fit on trailers

So this boat, my monohull starter boat, has taken quite bit of abuse. Also when I bought it I hadn't owned a boat in 6 years as I had sold all my beach cats in 2005

So I have crash into docks, pilings, bounced off the bottom getting to deeper water several times. Once during heavy weather, I reefed the sails for the first time with the boats lying almost on it's side.

I figured I was fine and I was. I'd never had a boat with ballast before especially 2600 lbs of it down a few feet in the water

Point is my keel ain't gonna fall off I don't believe.
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Old 07-10-2019, 15:44   #107
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
But is that a spade rudder? Its attached to the keel at the bottom, but I do agree, I think the Cal 46 had a spade rudder full keel.


Yes itís a Spade. The attachment at the bottom is for the ďLobster strapĒ which the purpose is in the name, itís there to keep lines etc out of the rudder / prop.
The bottom attachment isnít needed for strength, but why not take advantage of what is there?
There is no reason why a Spade rudder canít be attached at the bottom and be stronger than if it were not. What makes a Spade a Spade is itís ďbalancedĒ
Meaning that there is a portion in front of the rest of the rudder, this portion ahead of the center pivot point greatly reduces effort to steer, greatly.
I believe it came from Aircraft flight controls, long ago flight controls were balanced, cause you would have a manly man to fly say a DC3 or a B-17 if it werenít.
This rudder on this ship is a Spade, and while I am no shipwrights by any means, Iíd be surprised to find any other rudder used on a ship.
Modern ship that is
https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-...sed-ships/amp/
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Old 07-10-2019, 15:46   #108
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

See this definition of a Spade rudder, it seems Hylas uses a Spade that isnít what most think of as a Spade either
https://www.jordanyachts.com/262
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Old 07-10-2019, 16:55   #109
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

I have been toying with the idea of building a new trimaran and a full keel is one key change from my previous vessel. I found a decent article on full keel multihulls.

Sailing Catamarans - Keels or Daggerboards, the pros and cons
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Old 07-10-2019, 18:07   #110
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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I have been toying with the idea of building a new trimaran and a full keel is one key change from my previous vessel. I found a decent article on full keel multihulls.

Sailing Catamarans - Keels or Daggerboards, the pros and cons
I haven't found pictures of Wood's designs yet, but LAR (Low Aspect Ratio) keels does not necessarily mean full keel. In the article he states -

"The bottom of a LAR keel should be horizontal, otherwise you'll dry out at angle (OK I know that in many areas boats never dry out, but you want your boat level when in a boatyard) Even worse is a keel that is too short as then the boat can fall forward or aft when people move to bow/stern."

Definitely not talking about full keels in the above.

If you look at many cruising cat designs they have what many people are calling mini keels, which I believe Wood is mostly talking about, a low aspect ratio fin keel.
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Old 07-10-2019, 19:59   #111
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

I'm very late to this thread. I will only add that one might wish to start with the mission of the boat prior to discussing the sort of keel it should have.

Saying one is going "offshore cruising" really isn't enough information. One needs to consider the wind conditions, possibilities of significant storms, depth of the water you'll be cruising in, typical sea conditions, and capabilities of the crew. (at a minimum).

Having cruised for over 50 years on boats as varied as a Moore-24 ULDB race boat to a 60' Alden Schooner, and everything in between, I have some hard-won opinions about the sort of boat one should go "offshore cruising" aboard.

Let's assume that one isn't planning on rounding Cape Horn, cruising the Bering Sea, or rounding Greenland. Let's assume that offshore cruising is someplace like French Polynesia, the Med, or the Caribbean. In all of these normal places the choices of which boat aren't really very important. These are benign sailing areas (with the exception of hurricanes) and the choice of a keel type is really not a critical item.

Let's also get realistic about building keels which may or may not survive hard grounding etc... While dramatic to talk about, this should hardly be the primary consideration when choosing a boat. I'm relatively certain that almost any well-designed boat will do just fine cruising offshore and even bumping into the occasional sand bar, mudflat, or even rock. We don't drive around in armored cars. We shouldn't assume that we need to sail around in armored boats either.

That said, there are some significant differences in comfort across the spectrum of boats that have been discussed in this thread. Having sailed thousands of miles in ULDB boats my opinion is that they are quite uncomfortable and should be eliminated as alternatives. The boat previously mentioned in this thread, the Cal-40, is about a light a boat as I'd ever want to go cruising in. Note that the problem is not the strength of the boat (or the keel) it is the weight of the boat.

At the opposite end of the spectrum are the heavy boats like the Alden schooner we now use for cruising. It isn't nearly as fast as lighter boats, but it is vastly more comfortable. Years ago I owned a 65' steel Tom Wylie designed ketch, displacement 73,000 lbs, extremely comfortable and fast. When pressed that boat could easily do 280 to 300 miles per day. But, when driven that fast through any reasonable sea state, my family was miserable. The motion of the boat became so uncomfortable that we always limited our speed to 10k.

We've ended up with the schooner because the boat is vastly easier to sail than muscleing the large sails of the Wylie boat and is much much more comfortable. Yes, it has a long keel, but more importantly, it has a gentle motion at sea which is comfortable for the crew. Without a doubt, her easy motion is related to the long keel. But it is also related to the rocker in the hull body form, the long overhangs (by modern standards) which let her ease into a sea, and the soft edges to the turns of her hull so she doesn't snap-roll the way a hard chined hull does.

To conclude, the choice of an offshore boat should be driven by crew safety and comfort, appropriate durability and draft for the target cruising area, the appropriate capability to haul the stuff folks need to enjoy the cruise, and above all it has to feel like home.
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:32   #112
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

Full keel, long keel, fin keel. With proper boat design all are good. But at the end it depends on the final objectives of the boat, what are the navigation plans. My sailboat is a french designed exploration boat with a swing saber keel - weight is 300 lbs because all the ballast is rather in the bottom of the boat.

Keel up the boat draft 3 feet. Keel down about 8 feet.

The boat has a flat bottom and when running with a following sea, the saber keel is lifted and the motion of the boat is completely changed. No keel ! No broaching anymore, very safe. The boat goes where the wave pushes it. Most of the boat broaches by hitting wave in front and then pivoting around the keel.

Indeed those boats are very safe in open seas.
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Old 08-10-2019, 23:43   #113
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

A couple full keeler's I've owned for twenty years. I'm happy.
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Old 09-10-2019, 00:48   #114
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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Many good boats have been sunk due to bolt on keels, ...With a full keel boat it is an integral part of the hull and has ballast internally built in, so there is way less to worry about...
Problem is they don't make them anymore.

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Old 09-10-2019, 04:10   #115
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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A couple full keeler's I've owned for twenty years. I'm happy.
What type is the one in the upper picture on the beach?
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:29   #116
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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Originally Posted by sailorladd View Post
In my humble opinion, yes, these full length or full/cutaway forefoot keels are the best for long distance sailing, as it is less likely to go off course as much as a fin keel, which is very sensitive to the helm.

Fin keels are a concern, as they can sheer off if a reef is struck, or a floating log or container etc, causing the boat to sink, bolts can get fatigued and can in some cases fail.

Many good boats have been sunk due to bolt on keels, ...With a full keel boat it is an integral part of the hull and has ballast internally built in, so there is way less to worry about...
We've all read about boats losing their keels, but actually it is very, VERY, few. An insignificant number. But maybe it gives a worrier something on to which to focus his worrying.

On the other hand a boat with an encapsulated keel can just as easily, and probably more likely, damage the fiberglass surrounding the ballast and allow water in, which is another problem. Very common.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:56   #117
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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What type is the one in the upper picture on the beach?
It's a Hans Christian 34' the first vessel designed by Bob Perry. The beach picture was after the mooring line parted. Luckily it went on our beach, just waited for water and went and tied her up.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:45   #118
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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On the other hand a boat with an encapsulated keel can just as easily, and probably more likely, damage the fiberglass surrounding the ballast and allow water in, which is another problem. Very common.
Well, I have that kind of keel, with lead, and I don't think I have any leaks in there but I wouldn't know since it is sealed on top. I would not worry an iota if some water was in there really. Now if it was fresh water and I was hauling out over winter and it froze in there, then I'd be a bit more concerned, yes.

Just as a side note, I was talking with a sailing buddy the other day about Cal 28s and he commented, "if you ever sail a Cal 28, lift the cabin sole while you're sailing up wind and check out the flexing of the hull and keel." It's an encapsulated keel on a pretty flat hull so the keel actually rocks back and forth with the flex of the hull apparently. Still, I don't know of any keel issues with Cal 28s as far as falling off or any damage at all, but is that the first instance of a canting keel?
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:34   #119
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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On the other hand a boat with an encapsulated keel can just as easily, and probably more likely, damage the fiberglass surrounding the ballast and allow water in, which is another problem. Very common.
Water gets in around the ballast, boat is hauled for the winter, water freezes and expands, keel is damaged. Happened years ago to a Pearson Triton in the yard where I kept my last boat.

Or, water gets in, ballast is iron, iron rusts, rusting iron expands and damages the keel.

All of these things are just a matter of keeping on top of maintenance.......
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Old 09-10-2019, 21:48   #120
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Re: Full Keel Sailboats

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Well, I have that kind of keel, with lead, and I don't think I have any leaks in there but I wouldn't know since it is sealed on top. I would not worry an iota if some water was in there really. Now if it was fresh water and I was hauling out over winter and it froze in there, then I'd be a bit more concerned, yes.

Just as a side note, I was talking with a sailing buddy the other day about Cal 28s and he commented, "if you ever sail a Cal 28, lift the cabin sole while you're sailing up wind and check out the flexing of the hull and keel." It's an encapsulated keel on a pretty flat hull so the keel actually rocks back and forth with the flex of the hull apparently. Still, I don't know of any keel issues with Cal 28s as far as falling off or any damage at all, but is that the first instance of a canting keel?
The Cal 25s do this to the point that when they're hauled yard people think there is a problem.
Coming back from Hawaii a good place to sleep was on the cabin sole on the Cal 34 I was on. You could feel the keel move as we sailed upwind.

Traditional Cal hulls are solid glass. There might be one or two floors in the keel, but the cabin sole lays on the hull so there is no where to run a floor up onto the hull where it could have some real effect. The cabin sole liner is glued to the hull which gives it a little more rigidity.

But I could still feel the keel move on a custom SS 49 that I crewed delivery on. Made of aluminum with big ring frames, 40,000 lbs, very stout boat.
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