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Old 27-09-2015, 19:59   #61
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Wow,
SNIPPED
I would also question how you came to your measurement preferences now. SNIPPED
Walk in shower. 35s are the smallest that have them.

IE: the rest of you post. Good advice. Thank you
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Old 27-09-2015, 20:33   #62
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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That is what I was trying to find out. I did not know that.
Thank you
One possible reason that you didn't know that is that many think it is not true. In that group I include boat designers, racing sailors, enlightened cruising sailors and, well, me!

The premise that heavy boats have big rigs and so will sail better in light airs ignores the fact that their rigs are big because it takes more power to drive the heavy hull. The good old SA to D ratio has been viewed as a first approximation of light air performance for a long time. Of course there are other factors involved, such as wetted area, skin smoothness, L:B ratios, parasitic drag from appendages, and a slew of other arcane numbers, each one of which has some effect upon light air performance.

Oh... don't forget that there are light boats with big rigs too...

Jim
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Old 28-09-2015, 06:39   #63
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

This post goes in line with a. Previous thread where the discussion was of the responsibility of this group to advise new sailors even extreme neophytes.

Freeland. Love the passion you have. But when you first take out a 30+ footer on the water without any real experience you become a hazard to yourself and other boaters.

The first race I was in steering my J24 into the heard for the start was thrilling and absolutely terrifying.

Cruising is different but you want to put up a boat load of money (pun intended) and go for it.

Reality hits hard. The advise given by some here is sound. You can get a nice day sailor cheap. Enjoy the water with your wife. Get your kids involved. I sail with all my sons who are now so addicted they. Race all the time.

My one son went to 420 nationals this year in Newport. 199 boats.

If you really want to enjoy this as a family. Sign yourself and your kids into some sailing program. Trust me when I say that if your kids aren't into it and your wife isn't you will be sailing by yourself a lot.

The next good boat show is in Annapolis. I would suggest. Make a family trip out if it. You don't want any of the new boats but you will get an idea of what's involved and the expense.

If you start now slowly when the time is right in 6 yrs you will know exactly what you want and your wife will too.

Getting the wife on board is the challenge and she has preconceived ideas but doesn't. Understand the reality yet. My advise is get her excited about sailing too. You need two people to manage a big sail boat.
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Old 28-09-2015, 08:57   #64
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

my favourite
freeport islander... 41....with the centre bridge ...
best layout... huge cabin...its a ketch.. big fat keel...
200 gallons fuel... 200 gallons water... add tender....sorted mate
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Old 28-09-2015, 15:01   #65
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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Wow! Where do you sail? (Alternatively, what do you consider truly becalmed?)
Hahaha...I sailed mostly in the Northeast US, Great Lakes and small lakes. I admit I define "calm" differently from most. To me, becalmed is no wind. You can lean down and sight along the water and see dust and Cotton blossoms held dry by surface tension. There is no steerageway at all. You can not only blow smoke rings outside, but you can blow a second ring through the first. Most folks seem to define a calm as less breeze than they would like. As soon as the steamguage drops below four knots they reach for the iron genoa. I have come to think of sailing as two sports: those who sail with no engine aboard and all others.

As for light vs. heavy, I recall a light-air match race between a Hood one tonner (Ted himself at the helm, IIRC) and a Farr one tonner, then a radical new concept, a light seagoing dinghy. They rubberbanded their way around the course, the heavy boat maintaining her way, coasting from puff to puff, sweeping around marks in a huge arc. The Farr boat started and stopped, accelerating smartly in a puff, then slowing way down in the lulls. I no longer remember the winner, only that they were surprisingly evenly matched.

Decades ago, when I bought my first Laser, I mentioned to a friend and competitor, Corbo Corbishley, I wondered how I would ever keep up with the 140 lb. skippers in light air (I was 190 then). Corbo, (then perhaps 225) smiled and said I'd have no problem keeping up in the really light stuff. It was the in-between that was the problem. "When the light boats can plane and you can't, that's when you have to accept your thrashing." He was right (and today is a well known Lake Ontario yacht broker).

Lastly, as for putting a big rig on a light boat, that will work as long as she stays on Long Island Sound or Puget Sound, but subject her to all-round conditions and you'll have a problem. I was driving home from the '78 Star North Americans with sailmaker Steve Haarstick and describing my dreamboat to him: " She'll be long, narrow, and have a big rig...". Instantly he replied, "She'll be tender.". " She will?". "Yep, you can count on it". This from a degreed engineer (his master's thesis at Stevens Institute was on the Starboat jib). I often though of that conversation in the following years, especially when I saw pictures of an Express 27, a 2500 lb. boat with seven big men on the rail.

Paul
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Old 28-09-2015, 15:16   #66
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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Walk in shower. 35s are the smallest that have them.
I am constantly amused by the desire for shoreside frivolities and the utter lack of interest in sails and ground tackle.

Comfort afloat consists of things like dry clothes, a warm meal, and a dry berth. Why have a shower in a sport that usually has swimming as a daily activity? Besides, the boat you can afford can't carry enough fresh water to make a shower practicable.

Paul
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Old 28-09-2015, 16:57   #67
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

I know that you want to get a big boat, and have all the "stuff" that you would have in the comfort of your home. But I suggest that this is not what you want to do.

I suggest that you get a small micro-cruiser. Get something that you cannot sink. Get something that is very easy to sail, so that if you can get sailing lessons, you can probably sail it without them. A very small boat like a West Wight Potter 19, is not something you can stand up in(I'm 6'4" and I cannot), but it has s simple galley, a porta pottie, sleeping berths for four, and anchor, an outboard, and even many of the stuff the biggies have such as boom vang, roller furling, etc. Its stable enough not to sail heeling much more than 10 degrees max, so it won't scare the be-jeebies out of your wife or kids, and in fact will actually bounce back up if you try to sail to steeply into a heel.

It won't cost you an arm and a leg, and you can learn to sail in reasonable comfort. If you want something more, and if you want to sell it later, it has good resale and is easy to sell.

This may not be your ultimate boat, but then again, you might turn out to love it so much, and the fact that you can keep it in your driveway in the winter, and take it in and out of the water in nearly any ramp and most vehicles, that you don't decide to get something else. PM if you ant more information. I'm pretty much a newbie at skippering so I know things that the old salts don't remember that they should tell you. So you can PM me if you wish about this option.
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Old 28-09-2015, 17:18   #68
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

Excellent advice, in my opinion.

Paul
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Old 29-09-2015, 10:16   #69
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

Does 70 miles from the nearest mariana mean you will be 70 miles from your boat for the next 6 years when you buy one?

Best idea I see here so far is to take a family vacation to the Annapolis boat show. Everyone will fall in love with boats you may never own, but you will also get to see first hand many boats of different sizes. You will get to walk through, sit in as a family, and envision your family living in a similar but older design.

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Old 29-09-2015, 11:43   #70
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

Thankyou everyone for your input. Lots to.learn and excited about it. I look very forward to the day we can really set sail for ports unknown. We were both a bit of gypsy before we settled down to raise our kids, and now our grandkids. 6 yrs will be the end of the 46 yrs of raising kids....and I will be celebrating it on a boat in the Bahamas.
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Old 29-09-2015, 12:23   #71
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

Yes.70 miles to marina
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Old 29-09-2015, 13:10   #72
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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Originally Posted by Freemind View Post
We've been looking at ads for a 35'-38' sailboat. We want to eventually cruise from the Cumberland river in middle TN to the west coast of Fla. and maybe the Bahamas someday. We have to wait for our youngest Granddaughter to graduate in 6 years. (we have adopted them because my stepdaughter is a mess)
So , I've been trying to find a boat that is good in light wind, yet seaworthy, and with a wider beam (10.5'). The wife wants comfort, I want fun and speed.
We both want hot pressure water, a shower, stove and oven (propane), non cored hull, sloop, dodger, bimini, draft less than 6', diesel engine, setup for single handling in a rear cockpit. All for 25K or less.
I'm getting wrapped around the axle with the D/l and SA/D ratios because I want to be able to sale her on lakes in middle TN. on the weekends. I am thinking the wind is not strong enough here to sail a boat that size unless the ratios are right.
Am I asking too much? Am I misguided in any of my thinking or criteria?
I've been doing so much reading online that I think I'm losing my sight.
Please give your opinions. Oh yea, we have never sailed before.
Dont get hungup on the metrics. It all changes once loaded / configured anyway. Learning to sail in light air is more challenging than excessive heel in big wind and going 'fast'.

Look for a well maintained, well equipped, very livable yacht which has a good reputation. Don't get your heart set on a race boat and expect your wife to love it if comfort is important to her.

Fun versus comfort is a red flag. The 'happy wife happy life' goal will force you to choose. A good cruising boat is never going to be a 'racer' within your budget.

Using your sailing skills to make a cruising yacht sail well and with good daily averages is a type of racing.

Turn the computer off and take your wife boat shopping. It's an adventure for you both. Take your grandkids too. They are great beta testers.

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Old 29-09-2015, 14:24   #73
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

Have you read "Your First Sailboat," by Daniel Spurr? Highly recommended. That book will help you understand what kind of boat you should get, what to qualities to look for when determining which boat to buy, and how to buy a boat. There is discussion of the ratios you are asking about.

From what I've read so far, my guess is that Freemind and Crisco should be looking for a motor trawler. If I'm wrong, then I'd recommend skipping the sailing lessons and applying that money to a small daysailer. Spend a few summers sailing in the lake and join a sail club, where you will learn all about other people's boats. By then, you will have a much better basis to make a big boat buying decision.

You will also be money ahead. A couple years of owning a big boat will cost as much or more than buying a little boat. Hold off on the big boat purchase as long as you can and you will have more money to enjoy your cruising life later.
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Old 29-09-2015, 14:58   #74
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

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Thankyou everyone for your input. Lots to.learn and excited about it. I look very forward to the day we can really set sail for ports unknown. We were both a bit of gypsy before we settled down to raise our kids, and now our grandkids. 6 yrs will be the end of the 46 yrs of raising kids....and I will be celebrating it on a boat in the Bahamas.
I read somewhere that age 50 is about the maximum age someone new to sailing should begin a cruising lifestyle (age 60 for experienced sailors). Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

The Bahamas are nice but are also the eastern gateway to the trade winds (20 to 25 knots from NNW to SW every day). Sailing eastward through the Caribbean islands requires pounding into the trades and their associated ocean swells most of the time. This is not a pleasure sail for the elderly. In fact this route is called the thorny passage for a reason. A boat that excels at this is not the typical Atlantic coastal cruiser designed to excel in 7-17 knots.

If this is your passion then read "A Gentleman's Guide to Passages South". It will teach you how to avoid much of the thorns along this route.

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Old 29-09-2015, 15:46   #75
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Re: Frustrated finding a boat. help please

I see my earlier post was a bit off. Ok, you need a shower and bunks for 5 adults realistically. You will be doing quite a bit of motoring realistically so buy the engine, not just the boat. At 25k I don't think you can get there from here but really good deals do pop up now and then. As far as sail performance, I have been sailing for a while, different boats, and in my experience heavy displacement boats need more wind to get going and then after that top speed is a matter of water line primarily. The hull shape, center of gravity, center of effort and all that do matter of course, so it might be helpful to ask us about performance of various boats in comparisons. Other than that Skene's Elements of Yacht Design is good to peruse. As far as brands, I have sailed Catalina 32s and 36s and though they wouldn't be my first choice as a "blue water" cruiser they are perfectly good for the coastal cruising you propose. It is smart to ask owners about boats you are interested in. There can be some good deals to be found in older boats from the sixties as they were built well. But again in your case I recommend you shop for a good diesel as well as a roomy sailboat.
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