Foam Core Hull

[daysgoneby]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really don't understand the point of this discussion. On an old boat, for the ones that buy that type of boats special care is needed in what regards buying a cored boats and the boat has to be thoroughly inspected. If there is not water on the core and had been so on the last 20 years, than the chances are that it will not have problems on the next 10 or even more.

But we are talking about the best way to built yachts and that means new boats and regarding those all new expensive boats, the ones from whom the extra cost is not a problem, have cored hulls. Most of them fully cored some only cored above waterline.

The ones cored only above waterline are from the more traditional brands that make boats for the more conservative sailors, meaning the ones that are more slow in what regards accepting boat design evolution and better and new solutions and the reason why they are not fully cored has to do mainly with that, selling boats to that type of clients, the same reason that leads some of them to feature also "protected" rudders.

I don't know of any top production yacht (meaning not old designs that continue to be made in insignificant numbers for few and very conservative clients) from the last years that have a fully non cored hull. This should settle the question regarding what is the best way to built a GRP yacht when money is not a problem....but I have the notion that some will still find a way to argument that an all single skin hull is a better option

The ideal yacht | Windpilot Blog EN

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daysgoneby

The ideal yacht | Windpilot Blog EN

I don't understand what that has to do with cored hulls anyway it is a very poor idea to put a wind pilot on a performance boat. Performance boats for the appointed reasons don't work well on performance boats and the performance of a wind pilot is very low if compared with the performance of a good auto-pilot.

The solution used by the ones that like to sail extensively and eventually circumnavigate in performance cruising boats is a good auto pilot (with another as back up) and a hydraulic generator for having the needed energy with a minimal fuss, with some back up in the form of solar panels.

Why someone who would want a high performance sailboat would want a low performance pilot?

[daysgoneby]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand what that has to do with cored hulls anyway it is a very poor idea to put a wind pilot on a performance boat. Performance boats for the appointed reasons don't work well on performance boats and the performance of a wind pilot is very low if compared with the performance of a good auto-pilot.

The solution used by the ones that like to sail extensively and eventually circumnavigate in performance cruising boats is a good auto pilot (with another as back up) and a hydraulic generator for having the needed energy with a minimal fuss, with some back up in the form of solar panels.

Why someone who would want a high performance sailboat would want a low performance pilot?

Try focusing more on the design side of the article and how it relates to current boat building trends.

"Choice of boat used to be dictated primarily by criteria like build quality, robustness and sailing performance – in all weathers. Now, however, it’s all about “liveability” and a boat that falls outside of the standard range in terms of cost, length and number of bunks will find the market very tough to crack.

There will always be a few idealists for whom an elegant line or traditional style trump all other concerns, but they face thin pickings in an era when designing and building boats specifically for charter operations is often the only way to achieve meaningful sales volumes. Obviously charter business is all about liveability, comfort in harbour and, perhaps most important of all given the need for an attractive price per berth, space".

It's very costly to build a high-quality boat which can be had in any material, In my links I tried to give an idea of the current market and what to look for in a cored boat.
If you get something out of my posts that's great, if not, that's fine with me.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand what that has to do with cored hulls anyway it is a very poor idea to put a wind pilot on a performance boat. Performance boats for the appointed reasons don't work well on performance boats and the performance of a wind pilot is very low if compared with the performance of a good auto-pilot.

The solution used by the ones that like to sail extensively and eventually circumnavigate in performance cruising boats is a good auto pilot (with another as back up) and a hydraulic generator for having the needed energy with a minimal fuss, with some back up in the form of solar panels.

Why someone who would want a high performance sailboat would want a low performance pilot?

You'd be surprised how many newer Benni's and J's etc. have a windvane. I don't see any sense for coastal cruising and local sailing but crossing oceans they make lots of sense. They use no electricity, they make no noise and some have back up emergency rudder capabilities. We don't have a vane, we carry 2 autopilots but the past 4 boats all had vanes and I loved them. Obviously on a real performance boat they don't work well because if the boat really gets going it moves the apparent wind forward and apparent wind is all a vane uses but for 95% of the cruising boats under 50 ft a vane makes perfect sense.

[daysgoneby]

[QUOTE=Polux;2296915]The only interesting link is this one from a very young designer that says:

Come on give the guy a little more credit than just a designer.

Matthew holds two engineering physics degrees from Queen's University (M.A.Sc. in engineering physics / medical, class of 2012, and B.Sc.E in engineering physics / mechanical, class of 2009). He is a licensed professional engineer in Ontario, Canada
About Us | M.B. Marsh Marine Design

[double u]

...& the "superior cruising comfort & seakindliness" of those S&S Swans from the 70ies I doubt very much: great heel-angles upwind & very rolly deepreaching & ddw

[SailingFan]

Normally I would stay out of this specific conversation, but as I read the thread today, and checked up on the articles linked, something becomes painfully obvious, yet nobody seems to have made the clear distinction between single layer hulls of today versus their grandparents of the 70's, that the older hulls of real thickness were heavier in weight, but did not oilcan and are very easy to repair, where the ones of today are nothing of that type, are excessively flexible, and require a tray insert to use in even relatively benign conditions on inland waters.

Cores vary in integrity and level of production quality (and the quality issue applies to solid hulls as well, of course), but as Pascoe stated (and everyone ignored) the level of skill in applying layers of glass and resin to themselves differs exponentially to what is required to apply construction techniques to cored hulls, especially when the components change with availability and marketing strategies of companies that move boats first, and really have less interest in ensuring those boats last a long time (after all, if they all last forever, we would not need new ones, right?). How many older boats do we see around relative to newer ones?

These issues, and the consideration that the older vessels are not the same creatures as the newer ones, and that the methods and quality are so fluid in nature means that this is a conversation that cannot be made with absolutes.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daysgoneby

Try focusing more on the design side of the article and how it relates to current boat building trends.

"Choice of boat used to be dictated primarily by criteria like build quality, robustness and sailing performance – in all weathers. Now, however, it’s all about “liveability” and a boat that falls outside of the standard range in terms of cost, length and number of bunks will find the market very tough to crack.

There will always be a few idealists for whom an elegant line or traditional style trump all other concerns, but they face thin pickings in an era when designing and building boats specifically for charter operations is often the only way to achieve meaningful sales volumes. Obviously charter business is all about liveability, comfort in harbour and, perhaps most important of all given the need for an attractive price per berth, space".

It's very costly to build a high-quality boat which can be had in any material, In my links I tried to give an idea of the current market and what to look for in a cored boat.
If you get something out of my posts that's great, if not, that's fine with me.

If I understood well that is the blog of a guy named Peter Foerthmann that made a post regarding what he thinks it is the ideal yacht talking about the experiences of another sailor, Rainer Woehl and the yachts that one had: a Swan, a First 40.7 and some old yacht that he is trying to sell? Also about the wife of Rainer Woehl not liking to cruise on a sportive yacht (the First 40.7) and making an ultimatum to his husband regarding not wanting to sail more on that yacht?

What has all this to do with cored hulls? People tastes varies in what regards the type of sailboat they like to sail, some like to do it on performance cruisers others like to do it on heavier yachts but if Rainer Woehl, that had to change yacht to satisfy his wife, had the money to buy instead of an old boat a medium weight modern boat, like an Oyster, an Halberg Rassy or a Najad, I am quite sure he would be much happier since someone that likes to sail a Swan does not really apreciate to sail an old slug.

Anyway when I was talking about cored boats I was not talking about sportive boats but about modern boats and those have cored hulls if they are high quality boats, like the Oyster, the Najad or the Halberg Rassy.

That's why I have not understood the point of your link that has nothing to do with cored boats or not but with what some guy thinks it is for him the ideal yacht.

The ideal yacht is something that does not exist in absolute terms. The ideal yacht differs according personal tastes in what regards sailing and cruising and that's why the market offers many types of sailing cruisers.

What I am saying is that if they are high quality, made of GRP, independently of the type, they have cored hulls. Only cheap mass production boats have single skin laminate and even most of those use a system with an interior skin (contre moule) to limit the disadvantages of not having cored hulls.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

...Obviously on a real performance boat they don't work well because if the boat really gets going it moves the apparent wind forward and apparent wind is all a vane uses but for 95% of the cruising boats under 50 ft a vane makes perfect sense.

That is what I said. They don't make sense on a performance boat. I believe that performance boats even if in much smaller number than old boats or main market cruising boats are more than 5%.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Polux

That is quite unfair. I mean "weak in the cruising side."

Fact is that you, even without knowing, tend to judge all boats by the criteria that makes a suitable cruising boat to you. That does not happen with me.

You live aboard full time and that excludes already 95% or more of all cruisers and want also a boat appropriated to sail on cold climates.

That boat is perfectly adequate to sail on high latitudes but in the same way a VOR boat (but much more easy controllable) an adequate boat to do that racing or with a vert sportive crew, just for the fun of it, but certainly not adequate to to that in a leisure way while cruising. Not comfortable due to the
cold exposure.

But in what regards to sail on warm climates, that is what 90% of the cruisers do, including you most of the time, the boat is not only adequate as it is particularly good. Note that sailing in warm climates include not only the med but caribbean as well as sailing between equador and a bit above the tropics, that is where 90% of the circumnavigations are made, not to mention Atlantic crossings.

Note that boat has not only a fully mounted dodger, that you have only to pull back and quickly hold on two points (you can see it on the video), as it can also mount a small bimini while sailing and a lot of options for shade when at anchor.

Note also that it is one of the few 52ft boats that has a garage with enough space to carry a tender fully inflated and that if offers a huge storage space including a sail locker.


Note also that this is a semi custom boats and that they will adapt each boat to any sailors needs and that includes hand holds outside and inside. I talked about that with the engineer and the answer was: "We offer the basic, regarding the rest we found out that demands are very diversified and we prefer to adapt each boat to the costumers needs". It makes sense to me.

This is a two cabin boats with an extra one for storage or in coastal sailing to carry some kids and as so, as a cruisingboat will satisfy the needs of 90% of the cruisers, being in many cases the boat most would want.

You are probably asking yourself how I know that Simply because the ones that manage shipyards are not fool and if they don't offer products that many cruisers want they will go bankrupt and the fact is that there are many cruising boats with similar characteristics as this one, boats that are used for cruising and by cruisers that see in them their ideal cruising boat.
The fact that there are so much cruising boat offer regarding this type of sailboats means that there are a lot of cruisers that see them as their preferred type of sailboat.

Some of them are Italian, some are french, some are German, some are Danish some are Sweedish, even if some without any reason keep call them med boats, fact is that these boats sail everywhere, from the Baltic (there is even one brand called Baltic) to the Caribbean to around the world, some boats of this type have even been sailed on very high latitude even if not obviously designed to do that comfortably while cruising.

What they are is main market performance boats and the ones that constituted their market are many (including me) but obviously not you. There is a big diference however to say that these boats are a"bit weak on cruising" since all the sailors that constitute their market would not like to cruise any other way.

Sailing while all other sailboats are dead on the water, taking advantage of their excellent performance upwind or to their superior stability dynamic behavior and the pleasure to be at the wheel, not to mention overtaking almost all the boats on the water are characteristics that the sailors that prefer these type of boats trade for a bit more interior space and some more comfort, specially on cold climates.

Not saying at all that these boats are the ideal cruising boats for all, far from that, but I am a bit tired to hear some saying that they are not the perfect cruising boats or that these are med boast. It is obvious that these are the perfect cruising boats for some, me included, but also the perfect boats for many even if obviously not for all.

It should be very boring if all were the same and liked the same type of boats

And yes, of course, all these boats, except the More 55 are on the expensive side and obviously all of them have fully cored hulls.

Definitely weak in the cruising side from my perspective. Not a vessel for the tropics. Where is the shade (down below) and solar panels.

Polex your definition of a cruiser is a cruiser racer.

Cored hulls - the way to go.

[daysgoneby]

Originally Posted by Polux

If I understood well that is the blog of a guy named Peter Foerthmann that made a post regarding what he thinks it is the ideal yacht talking about the experiences of another sailor, Rainer Woehl and the yachts that one had: a Swan, a First 40.7 and some old yacht that he is trying to sell? Also about the wife of Rainer Woehl not liking to cruise on a sportive yacht (the First 40.7) and making an ultimatum to his husband regarding not wanting to sail more on that yacht?

What has all this to do with cored hulls? People tastes varies in what regards the type of sailboat they like to sail, some like to do it on performance cruisers others like to do it on heavier yachts but if Rainer Woehl, that had to change yacht to satisfy his wife, had the money to buy instead of an old boat a medium weight modern boat, like an Oyster, an Halberg Rassy or a Najad, I am quite sure he would be much happier since someone that likes to sail a Swan does not really apreciate to sail an old slug.

Anyway when I was talking about cored boats I was not talking about sportive boats but about modern boats and those have cored hulls if they are high quality boats, like the Oyster, the Najad or the Halberg Rassy.

That's why I have not understood the point of your link that has nothing to do with cored boats or not but with what some guy thinks it is for him the ideal yacht.

The ideal yacht is something that does not exist in absolute terms. The ideal yacht differs according personal tastes in what regards sailing and cruising and that's why the market offers many types of sailing cruisers.

What I am saying is that if they are high quality, made of GRP, independently of the type, they have cored hulls. Only cheap mass production boats have single skin laminate and even most of those use a system with an interior skin (contre moule) to limit the disadvantages of not having cored hulls.

I will keep it simple and to the point, not all cored hull boats are built to a high standard, to understand why it's help's to know what's happening in the overall yacht market eg. charter market influence on design(fat ass boat*) and cost. Skill level needed to build cored boat is high/expensive compared to solid glass (if done right).
Most people can't afford a yacht from a high-end builder so it's a good idea to understand what to look for, my links are a start, nothing more.

SailingFan gets it!

*SetSail FPB » Blog Archive » Beam, Drag, Steering, and Rig Size

[CarlF]

I think the previous comment about bolt on keels is interesting.

All (I think) early fiberglass boats had solid hulls and integral keels. The quality was very much up to the builder and either could be well done or poorly done.

Today, bolt on keels are almost universal despite the occasional loss of boat or crew when the keel bolts fail. But bolt on keels are certainly faster than integral keels. Just like cored hulls are generally faster than solid hulls.

Do the folks that insists they would never own a cored hull because of what seems a fairly small risk of a wet core also feel the same about bolt on keels?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daysgoneby

... what's happening in the overall yacht market eg. charter market influence on design(fat ass boat*) ...

You mean Halberg Rassy or Boreal design is influenced by charter market

[Polux]

Originally Posted by downunder

Definitely weak in the cruising side from my perspective. Not a vessel for the tropics. Where is the shade (down below) and solar panels.

Polex your definition of a cruiser is a cruiser racer.

Cored hulls - the way to go.

It is Polux and I don't have a definition of cruiser and the type of boat that you personally find as adequate for your cruising style only matters to you and is irrelevant regarding if the ICE 52 is a boat that suits the cruising style of the type of sailors and cruisers that will buy that type of boat, obviously not you.

Cruiser boats are the ones that are used for cruising by cruisers and there are many different types of cruising boats on the market because there are many different preferences in what regards the type of boats different sailors chose as their prefered type of cruising boat.

As I have posted on a previous post there is a big number of brands making performance cruisers with similar characteristics to the ICE 52. That obviously says that the ICE 52 is not a type of boat that belongs to a particularly small market sector and that there are a significant cruising market, meaning a substantial number of cruisers that prefer boats of that type, performance cruisers to cruise. For them they are not weak for cruising since it is the boat they have chosen to do it.

There is a well known American circumnavigator, that lives aboard with the family and that always have prefere boats of that type, first J boats, now a bigger sailboat of the same time. Just one among many that prefer that type of boat for cruising.

Obviously you are not one of them but for the ones that buy them, it is the type of boat they want and consider more adequate for cruising.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I think the previous comment about bolt on keels is interesting.

All (I think) early fiberglass boats had solid hulls and integral keels. The quality was very much up to the builder and either could be well done or poorly done.

Today, bolt on keels are almost universal despite the occasional loss of boat or crew when the keel bolts fail. But bolt on keels are certainly faster than integral keels. Just like cored hulls are generally faster than solid hulls.

Do the folks that insists they would never own a cored hull because of what seems a fairly small risk of a wet core also feel the same about bolt on keels?

Probably not, everyone on this forum has their own bias and after the dust settles they still maintain that bias. All new high production boats have bolt on keels so no choice there. If you want to buy a used boat it's going to be pretty old or an IP if you want a keel that isn't bolted on. One thing Polux points out is that all higher end boats have cored hulls and by and large, he's right. Cored hulls are lighter and stronger than solid hulls but they are not necessarily faster, that gets back to the designer.