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Old 12-04-2012, 05:44   #16
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Look for a boat with a deep keel with a bulb at the end to put the ballast way down low, water and fuel tanks down low in the sump, engine that is under the deck panels, low deck house to reduce windage.

If you do this the boat with be stiffer and stand up more, it also with have a slower ride and be more comfortable. Whether it is slower is more about the sail area so look for one that has a SA ratio of 16+.

Thanks Don - good advice. Where can I learn more about what SA ratio is? Is that the wetted area of the hull verses sail area?

Been looking at stick built Jenny's around 50' and $200K with in mast furling. I figure with a good survey on the hull and ~75K to get her ready I should have what I need. I wish they had a keel skeg but other than that people seem to speak well of them. Do you have an opinion on that thought?

The really well thought of blue water vessels like Peason and Tartan are really expensive but seem to hold their value well.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:54   #17
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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Hi,

I am getting ready to retire and planning to buy a ~50 foot <300K sailboat to circumnavigate. My experience is I had a Hobie Cat as a kid and have no sea time. First step is to buy the boat and get some experience but which one?

I was wondering if some people that have sailed on lots of production boats could comment on which is going to be the most difficult to knock down. I like the Jeanneau but I see them almost laying on their side in even small winds and don't think I would enjoy riding out a storm in the middle of the ocean on something like that.

Any advice on boats that are difficult to knock down?

Generally speaking, all keel boats are hard to knock down. "Heeling" and being knocked down are not the same thing.

Monohiulls are DESIGNED to heel when sailing, esp. sailing toward the wind at an angle. That doesn't mean they're about to get knocked down. They get knocked down because they have been overpowered by the wind. There are solutions for that.

Trimarans heel less, but go over more easily than monohulls when the wind gets high BECAUSE they aren't designed to heel.

I know people get tired of hearing this, but you really don't have enough information of experience to be buying a boat yet. Take a nice trip to the Virgin Islands. You can sail on both types of boats and talk to the captains and at least sort out which hull design you *truly* prefer.

IMO it takes more sailing skill to safely sail a large catamaran across a big body of water than a large monohull. But I have sailed/sailed on monohalls almost exclusively.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:20   #18
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I like your attitude. Maybe we will cross paths out there and race to see who can go the slowest.
Please also bear in mind that the 'slower' your boat is the longer you will spend to complete an offshore passage and the higher your exposure to the increased probability that you'll run into unplanned weather which will result in a very un-flat experience...

True to say, a heavier displacement vessel with optimized ratios could make riding out that blow just a little more comfortable - but like I said earlier, it'd be foolish to prematurely fall into a length discussion regarding ratios when you have little feel for what they actually mean in relation to being on the boat itself: always hard to accurately imagine the taste of an ice-cream if you've never had one!

The general theme of the feedback to your original question has been to get more seatime/experience on a variety of boats before your wallet becomes $300k lighter.

It's highly likely that it's not the advice you want to hear, but it's very sound advice all the same.

The only intention of the forum, i'm sure, is to guide you down a path that will minimize any chance for disappointment or financial loss resulting from a hasty non-experiential based decision. The more experienced members have all been where you are at some point in the past and will be advising based on mistakes regretted and good decisions made.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:28   #19
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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Thanks Don - good advice. Where can I learn more about what SA ratio is? Is that the wetted area of the hull verses sail area?

Been looking at stick built Jenny's around 50' and $200K with in mast furling. I figure with a good survey on the hull and ~75K to get her ready I should have what I need. I wish they had a keel skeg but other than that people seem to speak well of them. Do you have an opinion on that thought?

The really well thought of blue water vessels like Peason and Tartan are really expensive but seem to hold their value well.
You should do a search on "sailboat ratios" and do some reading. Keep in mind that a lot of the ratios are old school thinking and some don't apply to newer boats as well. For example a current mid level displacement boat would have been considered pretty light 25 years ago.

Keep in mind that most books etc on the subject are also pretty dated in that the writers probably spend a lot more time on the older style boats and the writing will reflect that thinking.

Don't know what a Jenny is, are you talking Jenneau (sp?)?

Forget about "holding valve"! You are talking boats now!

Any 50' cruising type boat will probably do you just fine and will probably sail better than the "numbers/ratios" suggest. The big thing about heeling that you are all concerned about is really you. Just sail to your comfort level and reef earlier, no big secret. The rule on my boat is that we reef whenever anyone is uncomfortable.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:29   #20
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pirate Re: Flat sailing blue water vessel

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... My dream retirement activity would be building aluminum tri-hull cats that can land back on their feet after a roll. I have a few invention ideas on how to make that happen. ...
Welcome to the forum. This sounds like what we all need is some new thinking. I've had 1, 2, and 3 hulled boats and I haven't been knocked down, rolled or pitchpoled in over 50 years. Maybe I've just been lucky. I'm guessing a 4 hulled boat would be stiffer yet. And just imagine the storage!
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:17   #21
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I'm guessing a 4 hulled boat would be stiffer yet. And just imagine the storage!

You could take the hull*n idea to its logic conclusion and get an offshore barge: slow but immensely stiff, outstanding righting moment and literally acres of cabin space!
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:11   #22
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Re: Flat sailing blue water vessel

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Hey...that's exactly what I use for my passage planning -- 4 knots; 96 NM average per 24 hour run. Except I have never thought of it as a compromise. Besides, one reason I'm going to go on my trip is to be at sea.
Me too
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:27   #23
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Re: Flat sailing blue water vessel

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Hi TheBuzz,

May I just call you "The"?

As you will appreciate a 50'er is a lot of boat compared to a HobieCat - even a light displacement 50 will be in the range of 22-28000lb. That's a lot of energy to deal with when you have any form of speed on the go.

When it comes to "knock down proof" it really doesn't exist. Yes, some vessels would appear to have higher stability on paper than others - but knock-down ability on well found vessels has more to do with captain and crew's experience than anything else!

You'll find that people will have strong opinions about stability, displacement, key performance ratios and whether you should be looking at a Cat or a monohull - these things can be discussed until the Cows come home.. However, i'm certain that nobody will argue that limited experience when planning a circumnavigation is a good thing!

I hazard a guess that the reason you've seen so many low-cost production cruisers almost healed over onto their beam ends isn't due to the boat but more due to who's sailing it. Any boat which is over canvassed for the conditions, will be more liable to suffer a knock-down. Bavarias, Beneteaus and Jeanneaus are particularly popular with charter companies and charter companies tend to have more than their fair-share of under-experienced clients who haven't yet gained the experience to know when to reef (or reduce sail); they will not have learned that you're always better reefing early and also how to read weather patterns in the sea and sky around the boat. The more experience you have the less likely you're going to find yourself in squally/gusty conditions carrying way too much sail - and therefore not finding yourself 'knocked-down'. That said, we've all been there at some point in the past - and hind sight is always 20/20.

I wouldn't be too down on production cruisers, they're generally well made and there are many of them doing circumnavigations as we speak without any issues.. if you do a quick search of long distance cruising blogs, you'll find a surprising amount of them are on Bavarias, Beneteaus and/or Jeanneaus. If you're looking at wanting a relatively young 50'er for under $300k then you're going to be looking at the mass production boats.

Don't think that mass production means "china plastic", these companies have managed to increase their market share to the point that they've manage to automate a good proportion of their manufacturing methods and as a result economies of scale come into play.. the result is less expensive boats and more market share etc.etc. Quality of the deck fittings and other items is where they tend to make their savings, but generally the hulls and such are well made.

My advice would be the following:
In the next few weeks: find a nearby sailing school and take lessons - i would highly recommend one of the intensive type courses where you sail/stay on the boat for a few days or long weekend. You'll learn a lot in a short amount of time from a good skipper and you'll start to get an appreciation for what's what.
In the next few months: try to read as much as you can around the subject. I've put some recommended reading at the bottom of the email, the more you can theoretically build on your initial experience, the more you'll have to "try out" the next time you're out on the water regarding everything from general seamanship to navigation.
Your aim should be to get to the point, even if this means taking extra courses, to be 'qualified' to charter a boat for a week or two somewhere with beginner/intermediate seas and coastline. The sail-school should be able to recommend here.
If you can get to the point that you've been on a couple of bareboat charters: maybe a 40' Jeanneau and a 46' Beneteau you'll start to get a much better appreciation for what's important, and I hazard a guess that you may find that 50' is a large boat!

The members of this forum are, on the whole, a highly knowledgeable and experienced bunch so it'd be worth heeding their advice to the best way forward. Remember, this is your own personal journey and you need to treat it that way - it'll just go much smoother if you can avoid the dark cul-de-sacs.

Good luck and i'm sure the forum here will be interested to know how you proceed - so please keep posting!

Phil

Recommended Reading (post sailing course):
Tom Cunliffe: The Complete Yachtmaster, Adlard Coles Nautical (ISBN 0-713-68948-X)
Iver Dedekam: Illustrated Seamanship, Wiley Nautical (ISBN 978-0-470-51220-3)
Perfect post and response to the OP. We should just copy and paste this for all other (new to the forum) members wanting to start from point A but not sure where that might be...Thanx Cavailer
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:36   #24
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

I'm very surprised the OP took offense to the one sentence of humor amidst the tons of valuable advise. Most of what has been said here is relevant to the OP's goals.

The people here have been great. The responses have been very helpful. I heart this forum...and it wouldn't be what it is without the humor/sarcasm.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:37   #25
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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I'm very surprised the OP took offense to the one sentence of humor amidst the tons of valuable advise. Most of what has been said here is relevant to the OP's goals.

The people here have been great. The responses have been very helpful. I heart this forum...and it wouldn't be what it is without the humor/sarcasm.
+1
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:14   #26
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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No offense but who are you to come asking for advice on this forum, get good advice as well as a little humor while you're at it and snub your nose at the people here? You speak of all the great adventures you've been on in your past yet lack the leather on your arse to take a little ribbing (not that it was even directed at you). You call what Cavalier said as banter, yet you insult him. Maybe you should try the other forums. I've certainly checked them out and seen the insanity that goes on there, so maybe they would be a better fit for you. Good luck and especially good luck on that virtual boat you don't have yet.
Yep. +1 more. Funny how no one wants to hear de truf. I was teaching algebra to a kid once who plugged her ears. I stopped. I learn fast!

BTW Cavalier, "The" said you had a little boat, but you know what he meant.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:22   #27
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Re: Flat sailing blue water vessel

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Hey...that's exactly what I use for my passage planning -- 4 knots; 96 NM average per 24 hour run. Except I have never thought of it as a compromise. Besides, one reason I'm going to go on my trip is to be at sea.
I used to think the same thing until I graduated to faster boats. What a joy to be able to count on 150+ nm daily runs!

I find it a lot easier to wait for a one-week weather window than a two-week window. Don't get me wrong, I like being at sea too, as long as there's not much worse than a gale with which to contend.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:29   #28
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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I'm very surprised the OP took offense to the one sentence of humor amidst the tons of valuable advise. Most of what has been said here is relevant to the OP's goals.

The people here have been great. The responses have been very helpful. I heart this forum...and it wouldn't be what it is without the humor/sarcasm.
Looks like we just lost a member with no sea time, no boat, and no sense of humor.

Tragic.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:40   #29
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

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BTW Cavalier, "The" said you had a little boat, but you know what he meant.
"It's not the size that counts, honey, it's what you do with it! mmm-hem"
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:57   #30
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Re: Flat Sailing Blue Water Vessel

he's gone folks , talking to ourselves now.

Dave
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