Finding the monohull family cruiser for ARC 2019

[tob]

Hi all!

Looking for the perfect sailing boat to participate in ARC approx year 2019. For any criticism about the idea, please post here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/forum-trolls-139787.html
People willing to give friendly advice on boat types, please post here! J
We begun analyzing the market by categorizing into three ranges of boats:
Wooden
Steel
Plastic
Concrete
We have decided not to pursue the wooden and concrete track.
The n of steel boat models, we’ve heard, is not that great, so perhaps possible to look them all up. Check out a steel boat once, it was damp, moist and smelled like molds. Not a good first impression of steel boats... Secondly, having owned 1 x wooden boat + 1 x plastic boat, have no experience of steel boats.
Pretty hard to narrow the search down. Let’s discuss plastic/steel boats. One possible narrowing down scenario would be:
Prio 1:
Long-keeled
Structurally very strong,
Easy to sail (so not the Volvo Ocean race type) also in severe conditions (storm etc).
Length: around 34-42 feet.
Price range: 20000-50000 EUR.
Prio 2:
Aft cabin accessible from saloon, not having to traverse the cockpit / outdoors. Preferrably two separate aft cabins or similar arrangement in bow part.
There will be two adults and 2-3 kids, the third might not be along all the way, but certain passages due to shared custody (50%). Three girls that in nov 2019 will be aged 9, 11 and 13 (not all passages). We will have extra crew on major passages, e.g. Atlantic crossing, but they can sleep in the saloon.
The boat we buy might be not prepared for ocean-crossing, partially or fully. That should affect the price of course, expect to pay more the more prepared. Partially or fully would be nice, ain’t got a lot of time to do all the job maybe. We realise that also the fully prepared boat will need major investments to suit our particular needs. Fully prepared can be defined variously of course, we might think satellite comm. Is important, somebody else not etc. But roughly!

We're looking to buy the boat in two years time, we want to get a few years experience with the boat we buy before ARC.

We're looking to buy in any of the following countries, so we can sail her home in a few weeks:
Sweden, Norway, Finland, Baltic states, Russia, Poland, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, England. More likely in the Netherlands/England than Russia though, due to buerocracy hassles with the latter, language barrier etc. Culturally easier to understand English, Danish and Dutch people too, but not entirely excluding the option.

We are based in the east coast of Sweden.

[beneteau-500]

For the money you are prepared to spend I would buy a cat

[monte]

Some more information would be helpful regarding your cruising plans, such as what happens before the Atlantic crossing and after? Are you planning on continuing to the pacific, Australia or around the world or just spending a few months in the Caribbean then back to Europe. A lot of Europeans cross with the arc then find they haven't got a real plan on how to return to Europe and many don't have the desire for the more difficult return trip and look at options such as shipping the boat, delivery skippers or selling in the Caribbean. Ongoing plans would drastically effect my purchase choice. Ie. if I planned to sell I would be looking for a non VAT paid vessel, probably new with the prospect of selling it and not losing the additional 20% on the purchase. This will also work well if you are headed to Australia. Thee are export schemes in Europe whereby you can also pay a reduced vat, but as I said it will depend on your plans for the boat before and after the arc. The Atlantic crossing is only a few weeks sailing.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

For the money you are prepared to spend I would buy a cat

Is it early on a Sunday morning? You added a 0! He has €20,000 to €50,000
The only cat for that requires tinned food every day and snuggles into the most comfotable chair you own.

[monte]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Is it early on a Sunday morning? You added a 0! He has €20,000 to €50,000

The only cat for that requires tinned food every day and snuggles into the most comfotable chair you own.

haha yeah it is early, I added an 0 as well..

[UNCIVILIZED]

This has been asked & answered on here, many, many times over, so might I suggest trying a search. Also, do some online searches to see what's available in your price range, study up on said finds via searches + reviews, including BlueWaterBoats.com or .org Also, that's a Very skinny budget for a boat that size if it includes the prep work, & upgrades which the boat will need.
Read Nigel Calder's excellent article, online, in Cruising World (Magazine) "A Refit Reality Check". It'll give you some idea of what you're realistically looking at needing to work on or replace when purchasing a vessel for voyaging.
Tom & Amanda Neale's website has excellent info on both choosing boats (make & model listings), as well as budgets. They teach expeditioning, & other offshore sailing skills.

[boatman61]

Do you mean something like this..?
Vektor Yachts 39 for sale Turkey, Vektor Yachts boats for sale, Vektor Yachts used boat sales, Vektor Yachts Sailing Yachts For Sale BARGAIN! SAS 39. 11.8m NEW ENGINE - Apollo Duck

Or this...
Olympic Sea 42 for sale Greece, Olympic boats for sale, Olympic used boat sales, Olympic Sailing Yachts For Sale Olympic Sea 42 - Apollo Duck

There's loads out there... heres what a quick search threw up..
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/searc...nty4=&sr=1&q=1

[goboatingnow]

With this price range I would look at buying a very standard beneteau or Jeaneau , there will be a huge range to choose from and price to match

Vat is irrelevant on second hand boats

Don't forget to look in Ireland , as it in the euro zone , so so currency issues like buying in the UK.

Avoid buying steel unless you know exactly what you are getting into , if you have no previous experience In the material , avoid it.

Forget about keel shape it's not really relevant. Anything reasonably modern ( ie < 20 years ) and over 36 feet will take you across..

The lower end of your budget will be challenging and will consist of fixer-uppers , if you have the skills , time and money , it's not a bad idea.

Try and buy mainstream European to get choice.

Dave

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

This has been asked & answered on here, many, many times over, so might I suggest trying a search. Also, do some online searches to see what's available in your price range, study up on said finds via searches + reviews, including BlueWaterBoats.com or .org Also, that's a Very skinny budget for a boat that size if it includes the prep work, & upgrades which the boat will need.
Read Nigel Calder's excellent article, online, in Cruising World (Magazine) "A Refit Reality Check". It'll give you some idea of what you're realistically looking at needing to work on or replace when purchasing a vessel for voyaging.
Tom & Amanda Neale's website has excellent info on both choosing boats (make & model listings), as well as budgets. They teach expeditioning, & other offshore sailing skills.

Tob

I think you've asked this before on this forum. Your price range is very, very skinny.

I think I've linked to these before, Phantoms are a danish built boat and will make the trip for you. Some of these listed here are pretty much ready (according to the owner), but you'll still ahve to buy more equipment. The price ranges here are 75 to 100k euros (although there is one in Trinidad for only 55k euros).

You will be hard pressed to find your boat for 20 to 50k euros.

Good luck - here's the link

Mon Moen Møn431 Owner..., &amp;quot;marine C..., brugte både til salg, sejlbåde motorbåde motorsejler speedbåde og joller


carsten

[hoppy]

Sounds like you need to go down the route of a 80's French production

Like a Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 (one just completed the latest ARC)

1982 Jeanneau Sun Fizz Segel Båtar till salu - se.yachtworld.com


Or a Jeanneau Sun Shine 38

1988 Jeanneau Sunshine 38 Båtar till salu - se.yachtworld.com

[carstenb]

we went through most of this with you last fall. Here is your thread

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...archid=7679445

[hoppy]

or a First 405
1986 Beneteau First 405 Segel Båtar till salu - se.yachtworld.com

First 375

1988 Beneteau First 375 Segel Båtar till salu - se.yachtworld.com

Based on your price range and ambition, expect to replace the running/standing rigging, sails, electronics, batteries, anchoring gear (at least chain) and a few other things in the years leading up to setting off. So budget a minimum of 100,000kr or perhaps closer to 200,000kr on top of the purchase price.

[Mainy]

We live in Cape Town South Africa.
In 2013 we bought a steel VD Stadt 34" which was professionally built by Martin Steynco engineers in Durban S.A The boat was launched for the first time end April 2013 and even though we seem to find the time to sail her in our local waters, we have been completing the project on an ongoing basis and are nearing completion as we talk. We bought the vessel to go blue water cruising but sadly we've changed our minds as it would not make sense to keep a vessel of this stature for local fun so we have decided to let her go.
We saw your post and wonder whether you would be interested in speaking to us. It fits into your budget and it is certainly a blue water machine
Thank you
Regards Marius and Sharmain

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Your price range is very, very skinny.

I joined ARC Portugal in 2014. The safety gear I needed (but mostly also wanted) was adding up to half the lower end of his budget. Before that, I had already spent more than his entire high-end budget, just improving my 38 footer. And I didn't prepare it for crossing the Atlantic, then I would have spent a bit more on things like a watermaker.

I would not even consider going if I had less than €100k. This would mean a €50k boat and €50k restoring and equipping it, and I would have to do everything myself.

And no, it would NOT be the "perfect" sailing boat by the end of it, it would still be a heavily compromised boat.

Don't compromise on:

1. Rigging. If the boat has not had a refit in the past 10 years and is more than 10 years old, it is very likely to need replacing. If you get a boat from the Med, it will CERTAINLY need replacing.
2. Sails. You will need a good set of sails, not only in quality but also in diversity. Main, genoa, staysail, gennaker or spi, trysail as minimum, all in excellent condition. Most cheap boats won't have ANY decent sails. A backup main and jib would be good.
3. Rigging for your sails: very few boats will be rigged up to deal with proper heavy weather. A trysail needs its own rail on the mast. A staysail needs a proper removeable forestay on most boats. All these things are not cheap.
4. Safety. You need proper gear. And it's expensive.
5. Engine. It needs to be in fantastic condition.
6. Proper autopilot and spares or windvane.

Less urgent but also important are tankage (water + diesel), storage space, electrical facilities (power generators such as solar, wind, hydro), tender + outboard, radar, AIS, plotter, and decent instruments (log, depth at minimum), anchor and chain (condition of windlass?).

Do yourself a favour, and go through the ARC handbook (a PDF that the organisation can send you or you can get it from me). Pick a boat from an ad that you would consider buying and then using the boat's inventory listing, make a list of everything that the ARC handbook says you will need, and find the prices on the internet. Add it all up, and then add €25k in surprises (if you're lucky).

Also don't think that the organisation won't eliminate you from participating if your boat will not pass the inspection. They will. Everything that is in the handbook needs to be onboard, in working order.

Best of luck!


Onno

P.S. One more thing: make sure you can sail her across the ocean yourself. If you're going up to 42ft, with 2 adults and three (almost) teenagers, I would not want additional crew on board.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

I joined ARC Portugal in 2014. The safety gear I needed (but mostly also wanted) was adding up to half the lower end of his budget. Before that, I had already spent more than his entire budget, just improving my 38 footer. And I didn't prepare it for crossing the Atlantic, then I would have spent a bit more on things like a watermaker.

I would not even consider going if I had less than €100k. This would mean a €50k boat and €50k restoring and equipping it, and I would have to do everything myself.

And no, it would NOT be the "perfect" sailing boat by the end of it, it would still be a heavily compromised boat.

Don't compromise on:

1. Rigging. If the boat has not had a refit in the past 10 years and is more than 10 years old, it is very likely to need replacing. If you get a boat from the Med, it will CERTAINLY need replacing.
2. Sails. You will need a good set of sails, not only in quality but also in diversity. Main, genoa, staysail, gennaker or spi, trysail as minimum, all in excellent condition. Most cheap boats won't have ANY decent sails. A backup main and jib would be good.
3. Rigging for your sails: very few boats will be rigged up to deal with proper heavy weather. A trysail needs its own rail on the mast. A staysail needs a proper removeable forestay on most boats. All these things are not cheap.
4. Safety. You need proper gear. And it's expensive.
5. Engine. It needs to be in fantastic condition.

Less urgent but also important are tankage (water + diesel), storage space, electrical facilities (power generators such as solar, wind, hydro), tender + outboard, radar, AIS, plotter, and decent instruments (log, depth at minimum).

Do yourself a favour, and go through the ARC handbook (a PDF that the organisation can send you or you can get it from me). Pick a boat from an ad that you would consider buying and then using the boat's inventory listing, make a list of everything that the ARC handbook says you will need, and find the prices on the internet. Add it all up, and then add €25k in surprises (if you're lucky).

Best of luck!


Onno

I'm not saying this can't be done. There are some deals out there, but they are few and far between. Two adults and 3 kids with extra crew for passagemaking so at least 3 adults and 3 kids, maybe 4 adults. Not gonna happen on a 34 foot boat (at least I don't want to be on it). Saying the crew can "sleep in the salon" is not in tune with reality. With crew sleeping in the salon - what are you going to do with the kids when they are up and the crew needs to sleep? Kids do make noise and they might not want to be in the cockpit the entire time.

Outfitting a boat costs. Especially as I recall on your earlier thread that you are safety conscious (especially because of the kids), so here is a partial listing (there are many more items and I've rounded off the numbers)

6 person raft - 3k
dinghy+motor (hypalon) 3k
watermaker (8 gal/hour) 5k
new anchor/chain 2k
AIS 1k
radar - 3k
solar 2k
wind vane 4 k

That's 23k euros right there and that is assuming your GPS/chartplotter etc are in good condition (3k). Also assuming you won't need new/spare sails (10-12k). Also assuming your autopilot is in good shape(2k). So is your engine(?). And so is your rigging(4k). These last items will add another 20k.

I'm busy getting our boat ready for an RTW. This boat is only 7 years old and in showroom new condition. (we also paid quite a bit of money for it). I'm figuring that I'll end up putting about 25k into it to get her ready. (but because I am very well known in the sailing business here in DK, I usually get a very, very good discount).

I'm not trying to rain on your parade - but I seriously doubt if you can do this within the budget you've sketched out.

carsten