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Old 18-05-2011, 21:41   #16
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

The best I can offer is that deeper and shorter (longitudnally) keels tend to take more time, attention and effort to keep the boat in a groove.

Longer shallower keels tend to take less.
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Old 18-05-2011, 21:55   #17
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

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Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
I think it's more complicated than what keel you have... there are boats of all different designs successfully plying the bluewater.

A boat is more than the sum of it's pieces... it's how all the parts work together. If you only look at the rudder or the keel or the waterline or the displacement or the ballast or the rig, you will miss the magic that brings all of those elements together and creates the spirit of a boat, the thing that makes it seaworthy and seakindly and a vessel in which you can place your trust and your life... and those of your loved ones.

There is science and there is art. Boat design is both of these things as well as a bit of magic...

It's not an equation you can hold up as a definitive law.

; -)
Well said.
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Old 18-05-2011, 22:32   #18
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

Ultimately it depends on how well the boat is built and maintained. That said, an intregal full or cutback keel with or without a skeg isn't as likely to fall off in a collision or grounding as has happened with fins. Just do a USCG search of sailboats sinking.
Why I Don't Like Fin Keels
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Old 18-05-2011, 22:47   #19
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

Full keel vessels are generally perceived as slower vessels, that is not always true. If you are in a hurry why sail at all? Full keels do offer protection for the rudder, and propeller, they also offer a greater ability to stay on track, less cross track error. I believe that if you were to sail 2 similar vessels side by side over a 1000 mile or longer voyage, one with a fin keel, and one with a full keel, they would probably be fairly even by the end of the trip.
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Old 19-05-2011, 00:30   #20
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

There are many fin keeled boats that have integral, not bolt on keels. Boats I've sailed with integral fin keels, Islander 26, Bristol 22, Cal 34, Cal 40.

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Old 19-05-2011, 00:50   #21
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

Funny, Hal Roth said he liked the external lead keel because if you prang things you don't hurt the fibreglass, and we all rub against mother earth a little from time to time. I never thought about the bolt issue until after I bought a Niagara 35 with a bolt on lead keel. Lotsa really big bolts, though.

I'm a fin keel guy. I feel it gives much better windward performance. I also really like to maneuver in tight places without hurting other people's boats. My greatest anxieties are in the marina, and a fin keel helps make that so much better.

I'd prefer a partial skeg, though I'm happy with my spade rudder. I don't like the full skeg because you can't balance the rudder (put some area in front of the pivot point), so the rudder or wheel forces become much greater. Of course, partial skegs leave a nasty slot for ropes to get caught in, but you can probably block that.

I'll likely carry an emergency rudder of some sort when I take her offshore (other than whisker pole and floorboard lashed to pushpit).
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Old 19-05-2011, 03:12   #22
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

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There are many fin keeled boats that have integral, not bolt on keels. Boats I've sailed with integral fin keels, Islander 26, Bristol 22, Cal 34, Cal 40.

John
so these boat may have integral keels, but would you be concerned at all with the free hanging rudders on the cal for a long distance trip?
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Old 19-05-2011, 04:47   #23
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pirate Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

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Originally Posted by bdurham View Post
so these boat may have integral keels, but would you be concerned at all with the free hanging rudders on the cal for a long distance trip?
Free hanging rudder on my Corribee... just drop it now and then to check the tube and shaft... quick grease and back she goes....
Only time I've had a problem was when I picked up an old bouy with a very long tail that hooked the rudder and dragged the bouy between rudder and hull... bit disconcerting when suddenly could only turn one way on a moonless night mid Channel... no damage and I managed to free it fairly easily when dawn came and the seas had eased a tad..
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Old 19-05-2011, 05:26   #24
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
I think it's more complicated than what keel you have... there are boats of all different designs successfully plying the bluewater.

A boat is more than the sum of it's pieces... it's how all the parts work together. If you only look at the rudder or the keel or the waterline or the displacement or the ballast or the rig, you will miss the magic that brings all of those elements together and creates the spirit of a boat, the thing that makes it seaworthy and seakindly and a vessel in which you can place your trust and your life... and those of your loved ones.

There is science and there is art. Boat design is both of these things as well as a bit of magic...

It's not an equation you can hold up as a definitive law.

; -)

What a beautiful evocation of the spirit of a sailboat!
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Old 19-05-2011, 06:15   #25
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Research, and sailing different designed sailboats will help one to decide the boat one wishes to sail.

I have seen damage to both spade rudders and skeg rudder types. There is no sure protection of a rudder.

Some skegs are designed to break off if stressed too much in order to save the hull. Some skeg pins are made to break off before damaging the rudder it connects with. The skeg may be designed to protect the rudder from lobster lines and small objects. Others can endure more abuse.

Typically, racers love the spade rudder for the response it provides them.

If there was one best rudder type, every sailor would be wanting it. Cruising long distance in a safe boat does not emphasize a rudder type.

Fair winds.
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Old 19-05-2011, 08:00   #26
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Re: fin keels, skeg hung rudders, full keels...

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Originally Posted by bdurham View Post
so these boat may have integral keels, but would you be concerned at all with the free hanging rudders on the cal for a long distance trip?
The Cal 40, though known as a lightweight for its time when it was designed in 1963, is in most areas fairly stoutly built. The rudder post is 3.5 inch diameter heavy walled tube. A bunch of owners replaced rudders with a newer design on approx. 30 year old boats and found signs of pitting corrosion. Mine has a bronze tube, probably a replacement as the guys at Foss claim they made all the Cal rudders and never made one with bronze. No pitting corrosion worries here.

The only story I've ever heard of a Cal 40 rudder coming off was one that had converted to a wheel, and when the second rudder fell off in a month discovered a wire had chafed through on the rudder post and galvanic corrosion had eaten them away. Without the wheel conversion there is a solid fiberglass tube from hull to cockpit sole.

No I'm not worried about the rudder falling off.


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Old 19-05-2011, 08:18   #27
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Re: Fin Keels - Skeg Hung Rudders - Full Keels

Of course some boats with spade rudders really need a line attached to the rudder blade so that when the rudder shaft breaks you don't lose the whole thang...

They don't need to hit anything for the rudder shaft to break, they just need time at sea.

Just think how fast you can go then, without the drag of any rudder!
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Old 19-05-2011, 08:23   #28
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Re: Fin Keels - Skeg Hung Rudders - Full Keels

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Originally Posted by bdurham View Post
looking for some opinions on different keel types..

we are looking to do some long distance cruising. trans pacific, east to west. i know that a full keel boat offers stability and protection for the rudder.

is it crazy to do offshore cruising in a boat with a fin keel and no rudder protection..?

it would be great to hear some opinons on this topic.
Here is a good place to start --- Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising
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Old 19-05-2011, 09:39   #29
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Re: Fin Keels - Skeg Hung Rudders - Full Keels

For anyone who thinks that spade rudders are a fragile, sissy way to design a blue water cruising boat, have a look at the boat these extremely experienced high-latitude sailors built for themselves based on a Van de Stadt Samoa design:

S/V Hawk

They have used this boat for multiple circumnavigations, Antarctica, Southern Ocean, etc.

I very much like this boat's combination of extreme ruggedness with high performance. Their boat is made of heavy aluminum plate, but it has a spade rudder, a high aspect bulb keel, and a very tall rig.

Their idea was that normal cruising boats are not practical for long upwind passages, but for the Southern Ocean they needed upwind performance adequate to make real progress upwind over long distances.

Very cool boat.

My own boat has the partial skeg, but I am coming around to the idea that spade rudders have some very great advantages. Hallberg-Rassy -- a company not known for fragile boats -- are changing over to spade rudders.
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Old 19-05-2011, 10:05   #30
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Re: Fin Keels - Skeg Hung Rudders - Full Keels

I'm a total advocate for others to purchase boats with really deep short loosely attached keels and fragile rudders. They'll keep SAR busy and leave the waterways boatfree. Seriously, I've hard grounded a couple of times (even solid rock at 4.5 kt) with a lead keel , a little fairing in the yard was all that was neccesary, not the end of the world. More to the point would be which is more important to you, speed and performance or comfort? I mean we're talking sailboats here, right?
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