Fin Keel vs. Full Keel

[Amgine]

And I'll be cheering you on, with a glass of wine sitting at my side and cheese on fresh baked bread... (Assuming I'm not laid up against the quay painting my bottom... nah, I've never actually done that.)

[s/v Jedi]

Amgine,

We actually have "cocktail conditions" even in 25 knots upwind. Also, we can stand on keel and rudder against the quay just like you (and never did, just like you ;-)

What you can't really see well on the photo is the big 6' deep spade rudder which is designed to compensate for the reduced keel draft (generate lift) and to stand on. Both keel and rudder are NACA foils.

cheers,
Nick.

[Amgine]

Not quite my point, but well taken. I meant it more along the manner of sitting in Paris café cheering on the tourists as their bus screeches in, they all pile out with their guide yammering a mile a minute, they rush about the street for a couple minutes with their wallets out then pile back into their bus 'cuz they have 11 more stops to make before dinner in order to 'do' Europe. After they leave someone will come over and ask me if I want more ice water and make rude comments about the tourists, and I'll sip my coffee some more in the quiet.

Not implying that your very nice boat and keel makes you a tourist. But it is an elite class of cruiser. For those of us with less means we usually have a choice of speed, comfort, and price: select only two. If I had the option of high performance as well as more functional/comfort, I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I don't.

[Dick Pluta]

Amgine,

Excellent summary. We see these threads that argue about what are, usually, mutually exclusive choices. My boat is big, fat and comfortable. Someone else's is fast. Mine ain't fast, but it gets there in comfort and with some style. It's what I want now. I rarely spend more than a few hours at a dock before someone says "What a beautiful boat" or "I have always loved those". When I had my old Pearson I can't recall anyone saying "Wow! I bet she's fast".

There was a discussion some time ago on another site about the Islander Freeport 41's (thats'a my boat) and whether they were sailboats or motorsailers. The most vocal critic punctuated his posts by capitalizing MOTORSAILER at every opportunity. I thought the best response went something like this.

I watch you fly by me, wet and cold, decked out in your weather gear">foul weather gear with your lee rail under. Good for you. I sit in my center cockpit, snug and dry under the dodger with my grandchildren beside me, enjoying the sight. Anyway, everyone at the dock loves me because I have ice!

BTW, my wife and I planned our retirement carefully some time ago and we have the good fortune of being the people in that cafe. We're back to Paris for the summer next week. It's an interesting commentary on the choices we make. We sit on our big fat boat and watch the racers go by here in the US and sit in the cafe in Paris and watch the racers go by. I guess that, wherever you go, there you are.


Dick Pluta
AEGEA

[highseas]

What do you want out of your boat?,everything is a compromise.I was in the belief what you wanted for cruising is ,3/4 fin ,external lead,full skeg on rudder,medium displacement.Sailing to windward is most important ,as when your motor dies on a lee shore .If you can't claw yourself off, then you have no boat!My boat draws 6.5 ft.,sails into wind nicely with no autopilot.Alot of boats have long keels so they can be shoal draft,with windward ability being low on priority list.

[Dick Pluta]

Exactly the point. What do you want out of your boat? 6 1/2 feet in the Bahamas or the Chesapeake is a huge limitation. If you're racing an 1/10 of a knot is the difference between winning and a couple of extra feet on the keel is no big deal. Full keel, fin keel, skeg mounted rudder, spade rudder, pilot house, center cockpit, masthead rig, fractional rig, flush deck...none is the best. One of those is perfect for your area and application. I think the point that Bob Perry made several times is the key. We each have selected the boat that suits us best. As a naval architect, he doesn't have that freedom. He has to look at each client and select from the vast array of design options and select the combination that best suits that clients needs. In the real world none of those options is "the best". If they were all that needs to be done is to design a boat with the best of each feature and we would all be sailing the same boat.

Dick Pluta
AEGEA

[forsailbyowner]

Sure didn't like that boat with shallow keel and deep rudder. Hitting bottom sure would be expensive.

[bob perry]

Thanks Dick.

I'll tell you a story. My custom boat client bought a boat to hold his slip in the marina. He never used the boat. He was just waiting for his fancy custom boat to be finished. I started using his "slip keeper". I really liked it. My wife really liked it. It was small, 26' LOA. One day my wife said, "We should buy this boat." I said, "Yes we should." We did.

After buying the boat, a Peter Norlin design, I say down one day and ran the numbers on the boat. I ran them several times because I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Essentially, the boat had a very low SA/D. Not good for Puget Sound. Still, I really liked the boat. I still do. We have bonded many times over. The fact that it is a bit of a ,,,,,,pig,,,,,in light air is fine with me. I have NEVER reefed. I'm 62. Reefing is a PITA. I have a nice little sail drive diesel and that gives me the light air speed I need. In a blow I just sheet her in and let her buck. We do just fine.

It's all about appreciating your boat for WHAT IT IS and not trying to pretend it is something else. Sail your boat sympathetically with it's genetic proclivities.

I notice here a tendancy to carve out your own bailiwick and then protect and defend it against all comers. It shouldn't be like that.

It's about 8pm, nice evening, mid summer, you have been on the hook for three or more hours. A fellow sails into the harbor in a converted lifeboat. You know it took him all day to get up the Sound. He anchors. He putters. He rows his dog ashore. Maybe he is the winner.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Amgine

Not implying that your very nice boat and keel makes you a tourist. But it is an elite class of cruiser. For those of us with less means we usually have a choice of speed, comfort, and price: select only two. If I had the option of high performance as well as more functional/comfort, I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I don't.

Given that choice, I would choose speed and comfort (that's only two, right?). That's actually what I did??!!

You know, we get to hear that often or other similar remarks. Many times it turns out that the cruiser with 45 footer mono (and almost all 45 footer cats) are more elite than us with our 64 foot mono! What I mean with this is that for many it's also the choice of what to put the money in. Some need house(s) and cars and stock investments beside the boat, others don't. The ones who settle for just a boat have more to spend on it.

I see no connection between keel shape and elite. Now that I think of it, it seems to me that when an example of a good fin keeler is brought forward, it is rejected as an "elite class" exception like if it doesn't count. Why not? It can't be because it is beyond your budget because we're talking about keels in general and not if one individual can afford it or not! I can think of many "other-than-fin-keelers" that cost much more than fin keelers (Island Packet, Hinkley etc.) I also don't see the link with the cafe and tourists. I think that has to do with the crew, not with the boat (and most Hinkley owners I meet are in your tourist definition while I am definitely not ;-). I also don't see the link with the rail in the water: I see fin keelers heeling LESS than the oldies. I see performance as comfort and safety too, while I see slow as less comfort and less safe. It's always easy to find examples to prove any point but it's just not true that a fin keeler is slower or less luxurious or less comfortable at sea than a longer keel. A fin keeler is often much faster and can be more comfortable at sea than similar sized boats with longer keels, regardless of the size range. And one can find a comfortable fin keeler at any price range.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by forsailbyowner

Sure didn't like that boat with shallow keel and deep rudder. Hitting bottom sure would be expensive.

The keel is 6'2" and the rudder is 6'. We have hit rocks, even with the rudder and it wasn't expensive at all. It took me 10 minutes and a little epoxy with fairing filler to hide the scratch. The dents in the lead keel took much more time and filler (money). The boat can stand on keel and rudder which just shows that this isn't something exclusive to a full keeled boat and it's strong enough to not cause trouble when hitting the bottom now and then.

The big rudder is part of what allows us to have only 6'2" draft and we could enjoy the Bahama's without ever touching bottom. I love it for that. Dashew actually put a lot of thought in the rudder: it's one big fiberglass piece and that includes the (fiberglass) shaft. So we never get water in the rudder like you can get with a stainless or aluminium shaft where it enters the fiberglass part. Also, it has an engineered weak point so that in a severe collision, the lower 2 feet break off, leaving 4 feet for steerage and an easy and cheap repair.

ciao!
Nick.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by bob perry

VMG is not open to opinion, upwind or down.

...you haven't met my wife.

[Dick Pluta]

I give up. I love your fin keel. It's the best. I think I'll join Bob and go fishing.

Dick Pluta
AEGEA

[bob perry]

Any time Dick.

[Rayallyn]

Since starting this post I have finally after a lot of looking and working with the calculator purchase a boat. She is not what I started to look for but I am satisfied for now. I really wanted a full keelboat but everything I could find in my price range needed a little work. Nothing I couldn't do but most boatyards and marinas these days will not let you do your own work.

I came across a Hunter 25 ft. that has two mains, 6 head sails, and new 5hp Johnson. The Keel has just been refastened with Stainless. The boat has no soft spots. The standing rigging is fairly new and running rigging new.

I wanted something bigger but with my lousy 1/2 of the 1/2 early retirement the math on cruising expenditures and upkeep kept moving me smaller and smaller. Plus what I make now as photojournalist keeps getting less and less. I've sailed 26 footers over long coastal cruising in the past and feel this boat will do well. Hell, with a bit of upgrading and keeping a close eye on the weather I might even try some Island hopping.

[Amgine]

Best of luck, Rayallan! Keep us informed of how things are going and what you're up to.