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Old 25-12-2012, 11:18   #106
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

With encapsulated keel, if you hit a rock, coral etc, and penetrate the fiberglass water will leak into the hull and eventually down you go. With a keel attached to a stub any damage to the keel is outside of the hull. The only keels I know of that have fallen off were on high tech, experimental race boats. Regrettably I can attest to the fact that my keel on my Sabre 38 has remained solidly intact after several rock groundings.
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Old 25-12-2012, 11:25   #107
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by Normanskier View Post
With encapsulated keel, if you hit a rock, coral etc, and penetrate the fiberglass water will leak into the hull and eventually down you go. With a keel attached to a stub any damage to the keel is outside of the hull. The only keels I know of that have fallen off were on high tech, experimental race boats. Regrettably I can attest to the fact that my keel on my Sabre 38 has remained solidly intact after several rock groundings.

Encapsulated keels like the name say are encapsulated, meaning fiberglassed in the top, water cant found a way to reach the interior in the case the keel is ruptured, a diferent scenario if is the hull who take the Bang!
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Old 25-12-2012, 11:55   #108
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Tell that to Caliber sailboats. A friend holed the bottom of his encapsulated keel off Watch Hill reef and if not for the CG the boat would have gone down. He had water in the cabin to his knees.

Curious to know how the item you are talking about is attached to the boat.
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:12   #109
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Bilge floor !! or do you see any stringer or beam suport in this bolts.....
What brand of boat was that?!
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:15   #110
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by Normanskier View Post
Tell that to Caliber sailboats. A friend holed the bottom of his encapsulated keel off Watch Hill reef and if not for the CG the boat would have gone down. He had water in the cabin to his knees.

Curious to know how the item you are talking about is attached to the boat.
That would be internal ballast. Encapsulated ballast is fully enclosed in the hull material. My Cal 36 has an encapsulated keel. The keel and hull are made in what appears to be one piece, inside the mould. One continuous layup. It appears that the lead ballast is then inserted from the inside and then layup seals it in place. It is possible that the layup be made over the lead. The result will be the same. The bilge is quite deep as the lead casting is only in the lower forward part of the keel.

This is a somewhat inefficient way to make a keel as the heavy layup effectively reduces the density of the ballast. However damaging the lower part of the keel will not cause a safety issue. There are no bolts used.
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:30   #111
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by chrisferro View Post
What brand of boat was that?!

Cape Fear 38.

Norman about the Caliber , without see a pic or know the whole history hard to make a opinion, but a ballast enclosed from bottom , sides, and top in a heavy thick fiberglass dont compromise hull integrity unless is a brutal collision or something very serious....
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:32   #112
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Has anybody mentioned sistering keel bolts as a way to strengthen your keel-to-hull joint? This is actually something that I've been considering on my 1983 Seidelmann 30T. As long as the keel is bolted (and glued) to a structurally solid and strong stub at the bottom of the hull (and there's really no way to know that without pulling the keel off and examining it) then the next thing to worry about is keel bolt corrosion (and with no visible signs, there is, once again, no way to really know the condition of your keel bolts without pulling the keel off and inspecting them). So it seems to me the simplest thing to do is put in a couple of extra keel bolts (drill down, then drill a perpendicular hole down lower, insert stainless all-thread, screw it into a threaded piece down in the perpendicular channel, seal it all up with epoxy, then put a giant washer or backing plate over each new bolt and crank it down). It doesn't seem that hard a project - the biggest problem would be drilling such a deep hole perfectly straight downward and lining up the two holes.

I'd worry less about my keel falling off...
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:41   #113
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Keels are designed with enough bolts by design, you better take care of the condition of the actual bolts, joint , and the structure who this bolts are .....My opinion, Cheers.
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Old 25-12-2012, 19:09   #114
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Encapsulated keels like the name say are encapsulated, meaning fiberglassed in the top, water cant found a way to reach the interior in the case the keel is ruptured, a diferent scenario if is the hull who take the Bang!
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Old 25-12-2012, 19:15   #115
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I thought about this topic for a while, while I'm sure encapsulated keels can have massive problems leading to the boat being written off, I have seen in the boat yard this year at least 7 boats with major keel issues, all fins. From grounding with the keel breaking the hull, to corroded away bolts requiring removal and replacement of bolts. All the problems were expensive to fix.

However, there was only one encapsulated keel boat hauled that I can recall in the same time period. So the sample size certainly has something to do with it.
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Old 26-12-2012, 12:35   #116
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

And this was kinda funny.......
Saw an O'Day pulled from the water.. the customer wanted to shorten the keel as most of his future would be spent in the shallower waters of the delta..
Befor the yard would cut it down, they wanted to find out what was inside the
encapsulated keel..
They set a skill saw at minimum depth and proceeded to cut a 1 foot square in the side of the keel... after cutting, they pryed the section off and as they did, the SAND started to poor out of the hole.. they laid the boat over on its side, shoveled the sand back in and glassed the hole up... you never know what is inside the keel area..

and was told at the time that they had run into many different types of boats, all with
encapsulated keels..
for a period of time, Catalina had built a 27 foot model in Canada.. they were known to be a "chopper gun" production.. and every once in a while one turns up.. the keel on them was encapsulated and made of "Red Morter" like a brick..
another case was used on the Choy Lee .. my son had a 31 foot offshore.. the keel was molded into the hull when built and "Iron" inguts were dropped in and cement poored into the keel area.. I know this as his had gotton water inside the keel, it frozee and busted up the cement.. instead of taking it all out and starting over, he mixed up a slury of cement and poored it into the cracked keel area and over the top....
for years, cement was used as balest, and if you ever spend time around an old boat yard where they haul and dismantle or burn old fishing boats, you'll see after the hull is burnt, what is left is a big chunk of cement.
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Old 26-12-2012, 16:51   #117
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
And this was kinda funny.......
Saw an O'Day pulled from the water.. the customer wanted to shorten the keel as most of his future would be spent in the shallower waters of the delta..
Befor the yard would cut it down, they wanted to find out what was inside the
encapsulated keel..
They set a skill saw at minimum depth and proceeded to cut a 1 foot square in the side of the keel... after cutting, they pryed the section off and as they did, the SAND started to poor out of the hole.. they laid the boat over on its side, shoveled the sand back in and glassed the hole up... you never know what is inside the keel area..

and was told at the time that they had run into many different types of boats, all with
encapsulated keels..
for a period of time, Catalina had built a 27 foot model in Canada.. they were known to be a "chopper gun" production.. and every once in a while one turns up.. the keel on them was encapsulated and made of "Red Morter" like a brick..
another case was used on the Choy Lee .. my son had a 31 foot offshore.. the keel was molded into the hull when built and "Iron" inguts were dropped in and cement poored into the keel area.. I know this as his had gotton water inside the keel, it frozee and busted up the cement.. instead of taking it all out and starting over, he mixed up a slury of cement and poored it into the cracked keel area and over the top....
for years, cement was used as balest, and if you ever spend time around an old boat yard where they haul and dismantle or burn old fishing boats, you'll see after the hull is burnt, what is left is a big chunk of cement.
Yeah, cement used a s ballast alot on commercial boats.
I've never heard of an Oday with an encapsulated keel, all I've seen were centerboard or bolt on... know what size it was?
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Old 26-12-2012, 18:53   #118
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Manufactureres use externally bolted on ballast not because it is structurally better but because it is CHEAPER.
Actually, that's no longer true. Many modern keelboats have kevlar-reinforced garboard strakes that are structurally superior to encapsuled-ballast systems.

There's a false dichotomy in arguing structural superiority vs economic efficiency. The advantage of newer systems to the manufacturers is that the same hull can be configured with either a shoal keel or a deep keel at the buyer's option. So, in that sense it's cheaper than designing two different hull forms, but it's structurally superior regardless because of how the area where the keel bolts on is reinforced. There is, of course, a performance advantage as well to bolted-on keels, which makes them a win/win situation both for the manufacturer and the consumer.

Imagine that, and you'll suddenly realize why bolted-on keels are here to stay.
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Old 27-12-2012, 05:23   #119
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

I doubt that it is less expensive to have a foundry make up a casting into a shape, melt and pour in a bunch of lead, have keel bolts cast into it at very specific locations, and ship it to the boat company, than it is to:

glass in a keel shape, stack some metal bricks into it or pour a bunch of shot into the keel and then to cover it with some epoxy or fiberglass etc.
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Old 27-12-2012, 06:23   #120
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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I've never heard of an Oday with an encapsulated keel, all I've seen were centerboard or bolt on... know what size it was?
The one in Post #80 in an O'day 30 with encapsulated ballast. Look close to the bilge pump and you can see the sandy "grit" oozing out....
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