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Old 17-12-2012, 10:58   #61
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Maybe to lighten this conversation up a bit I'll share a rather implausible story I heard some wing nut share in a bar near my house.

Guy came in and said he just got off his sailboat (odd choice of bars for him considering the nearest sailboat friendly water is a half hour or more away). He was obviously trying to impress the waitress somehow and didn't know that I owned a boat and was sitting at the bar.

When she asked him where his boat was he said he had left the boat at anchor in English Bay - because the day before he had dropped his keel and needed to get a new one. He started going off to the guys sitting at the bar and when he engaged me I asked him if he took the mast off to keep it from turtling over in a light breeze.

He said he didn't need to to take the mast off because he could still sail it without the keel. I asked him if he knew much about boat repair because from what I know if you're keel just fell straight off chances are that by the time you made it to this here bar your boat is on the bottom of the ocean. He said he was looking for someone to fix his boat for him.

He was a pretty young guy, probably in his mid to late 20s. I suggested if he couldn't fix the problem himself the boat was probably entirely worthless, and he might do best by giving it away to a reputable boat builder for pennies on the dollar before he had to pay Fisheries & Oceans salvage costs for pulling it from the bottom (English Bay is a sandy beach quite shallow, a mast of a sunken boat would show).

He was not amused, finished his beer and left the bar, but not before carrying on for 15 minutes about how dropping the keel while sailing wasnt that big of a deal and seeing the look of bemusement on my face.
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Old 17-12-2012, 11:43   #62
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Actually sailing is safer. Go look at Beth and Evans Home Page They have a page that shows the relative risks of various activities. Bluewater sailing is safer than riding a bicycle, or swimming, or anything except golf.

So don't worry about your keel dropping off. Worry about driving your car down to the marina.
haha... i hadn't looked at the stats but that is exactly what one could expect to find......

No that I have it seems that in New Zealand drowning is the third highest cause of unintentional death...not exactly related to the subject, but possible relevant all the same.
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Old 17-12-2012, 12:13   #63
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

I've read the external/internal keel thing lots times and in lots of places over the years, and for each which is best depends on who writes the comparison.

For 99+% of boats the keels don't just fall off, they get helped (normally more than just once before an issue develops).

So decide whether you want to chose your keel to crush clams and rocks or whether you want the boat to be a better sailor instead.

You interested in sailing of living in fear.
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Old 17-12-2012, 12:28   #64
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Jim if you were to re-read what I wrote I said the safest design if grounded or hitting a container or reef is a full or modified full keel with encapsulated ballast. I don't think anyone except KVB will argue that point.
....
That's a strange claim to make, considering the post immediately preceding it
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Old 17-12-2012, 12:36   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr-canada
Maybe to lighten this conversation up a bit I'll share a rather implausible story I heard some wing nut share in a bar near my house.

Guy came in and said he just got off his sailboat (odd choice of bars for him considering the nearest sailboat friendly water is a half hour or more away). He was obviously trying to impress the waitress somehow and didn't know that I owned a boat and was sitting at the bar.

When she asked him where his boat was he said he had left the boat at anchor in English Bay - because the day before he had dropped his keel and needed to get a new one. He started going off to the guys sitting at the bar and when he engaged me I asked him if he took the mast off to keep it from turtling over in a light breeze.

He said he didn't need to to take the mast off because he could still sail it without the keel. I asked him if he knew much about boat repair because from what I know if you're keel just fell straight off chances are that by the time you made it to this here bar your boat is on the bottom of the ocean. He said he was looking for someone to fix his boat for him.

He was a pretty young guy, probably in his mid to late 20s. I suggested if he couldn't fix the problem himself the boat was probably entirely worthless, and he might do best by giving it away to a reputable boat builder for pennies on the dollar before he had to pay Fisheries & Oceans salvage costs for pulling it from the bottom (English Bay is a sandy beach quite shallow, a mast of a sunken boat would show).

He was not amused, finished his beer and left the bar, but not before carrying on for 15 minutes about how dropping the keel while sailing wasnt that big of a deal and seeing the look of bemusement on my face.
http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-view...no-one-noticed

Of course never let facts get in the way of a good debate

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Old 17-12-2012, 12:41   #66
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

On the return to the mainland after the single handed TransPac, one of the boats lost most of its keel a day or two out of SF. They were able to get the boat back to SF without turning turtle. Must have been on a broad reach or run when the keel departed as that's the only way such a divorce wouldn't have resulted in immediately exposing of the dark side. Boat was a modern go fast with an ultrashort keel with bulb.

I'll repeat, if there is no deep sump in a boat to trap the water that gets in, it will be a miserable piece of garbage to cruise in. The first bad weather, everything below will be soaked.

Airplane wings are designed to slice through air, haven't seen one that fairs well when it comes in contact with the ground. These new boats with ultra short keels are relying on a few feet of hull to support a 7'-10' lever arm when they hit something solid. Trememdous force that has to have a way way stout keel attachment design to handle it. Something that I bet isn't the case with production boats. Yes the keel will stay attached for normal sailing. Don't count on it for a serious grounding that a longer bolt on keel or an encapsulated keel would shrug off.

For those who think grounding won't happen to them. Try sailing for a while. There are only two types of sailors, those who've run aground and those who will run aground given enough experience.

Encapsulated keels can have the FRP lay up ground away or cracked in a hard grounding on rocky bottoms. That will allow water into the keel cavity but not into the boat itself as long as the FRP layup over the ballast remains intact. When it's time to haul out, simple job to relaminate the abraided areas the boat is better than new.
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Old 17-12-2012, 16:40   #67
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Actually sailing is safer. Go look at Beth and Evans Home Page They have a page that shows the relative risks of various activities. Bluewater sailing is safer than riding a bicycle, or swimming, or anything except golf.

So don't worry about your keel dropping off. Worry about driving your car down to the marina.
What we need to know is the safety of a decades old boat with a bolted on keel that has never been dropped and serviced....
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Old 17-12-2012, 17:13   #68
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Roverhi I don't think anyone here is talking about 10 foot very high aspect racing keels. I beleive we are talking about relativly long fin keels on typical modern cruising boats.

I've delivered a fair few fin keel production cruisers. Yes I agree about to lack of a sump in some, equally water ingress in modern boats is low these days, with good hatches etc. I wouldn't say it makes it a miserable experience. You just learn to keep your clothes of of the bottoms of certain lockers.

Encapsulated keels are now a tiny minority. I can't remember last when I sailed in one. ( yes. I do an old HR three years ago )

Really this argument is somewhat acedemic. Most new or nearly new boats will be bolt on anyway.

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Old 17-12-2012, 17:32   #69
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I actually never started on the subject, that it was structurally better, if you can show me repeatable strength and durability tests from a reputable test house I will consider that aspect.

Its clear that all keels are compromises, external keels can be shaped to have better chord and aspect properties, hence more hydrodynamic and provide more lift. Encapsulated keels are more difficult to control resin buildup and are not practical in high aspect designs, GRP isnt structural enough for this.

Then you look at production methodologies and aspects of fin keel design help production efficiencies, which is a good thing. Furthermore it is initially more expensive to engineer and build in external keels, whereas encapsulated keels can have any old crap in them as ballast

BUT, all of that is irrelevant, today virtually everyone uses bolt on keels, few give trouble and as several posters have said, problems will occur elsewhere before you have problems with your keel. Its simply a non event.

Dave
>I actually never started on the subject, that it was structurally better, if you >can show me repeatable strength and durability tests from a reputable test >house I will consider that aspect.

Tests from a reputable test house? Nonsense. Just walk through some boat yards. There is your test sample.

Your claims regarding encapsulated keel damage is a non issue compared to the maintenance and total failures concerning fins. The way I see it the old traditional designs have one up on the newbies when it comes to hull and keel integrity. Nothing offered here has changed my thinking....

RT
PS I sail south Florida and the Bahamas with a boat having 6' draft. What would YOU feel more secure in, a 6' fin or a 6' full keel with encapsulated lead? And like someone said in a previous post, with enough experience you WILL go aground.
PPS Murphy loves fins......
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Old 17-12-2012, 17:48   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtcapo

>I actually never started on the subject, that it was structurally better, if you >can show me repeatable strength and durability tests from a reputable test >house I will consider that aspect.

Tests from a reputable test house? Nonsense. Just walk through some boat yards. There is your test sample.

Your claims regarding encapsulated keel damage is a non issue compared to the maintenance and total failures concerning fins. The way I see it the old traditional designs have one up on the newbies when it comes to hull and keel integrity. Nothing offered here has changed my thinking....

RT
PS I sail south Florida and the Bahamas with a boat having 6' draft. What would YOU feel more secure in, a 6' fin or a 6' full keel with encapsulated lead? And like someone said in a previous post, with enough experience you WILL go aground.
PPS Murphy loves fins......
Give it a rest vtcapo, I don't know where you sail or what you sail , but I have been in several of the largest boatyards around Europe. It's not a common issue.

Sail whatever you like just stop saying nonsense. There are no more manufacturers of any volume making encapsulated keels. You might as well say you like traditional wooden yachts. None of those about new either ( in any numbers ). The Bahamas are not the preserve of encapsulated keels , the charter companies are using bolt t on shoal keels.

Modern yachts do the job and will take you around the world if you want to, that's not to say yours will or will not.
Night night now

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Old 17-12-2012, 17:58   #71
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Give it a rest vtcapo, I don't know where you sail or what you sail , but I have been in several of the largest boatyards around Europe. It's not a common issue.

Sail whatever you like just stop saying nonsense. There are no more manufacturers of any volume making encapsulated keels. You might as well say you like traditional wooden yachts. None of those about new either ( in any numbers ). The Bahamas are not the preserve of encapsulated keels , the charter companies are using bolt t on shoal keels.

Modern yachts do the job and will take you around the world if you want to, that's not to say yours will or will not.
Night night now

Dave
And your point?
Milk and cookies nite nite.........
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Old 17-12-2012, 19:03   #72
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

But this convo posting is not about fin bolted keels v encapsulated keels , is about fin keel strenght,just saying.....
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Old 17-12-2012, 20:04   #73
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Maintenance isues is another history, a full encapsulated keel dont have any maintenance schedule, 0... a bolted fin keel lets say have the joint to inspect, keel bolts retorque, corrosion in bolts, some builders still using iron for the fin,, corrosion rust, leaks in the bilge, etc.... yes a fin bolted keel have maintenance isues and a encapsulated keel is free of maintenace .....
Ummm until you hit a solid granite ledge in Maine with cement ballast. Next your boat sits on the hard for nearly the entire sailing seasons trying to dry out the cement ballast that has absorbed sea water. When the yard finally thinks it is dry they repair the hole. That winter the keel freezes and splits because even after a month + it was still not totally dry.... Under pressure in the water the ocean moves in but on the hard you depend upon gravity for it to dry out. Here in the land of solid granite we see lots of boats hit ledges. Some of the boats that fair the worst and take the most time to repair are the ones that are encapsulated because they can absorb water. This is especially true of the ones with pig iron and cement ballast, which a quite a number of boats with encapsulated ballast seem to have... An encapsulated keel in Maine would be one of my last choices for this reason alone. I don't want to miss half a season trying to dry out my keel..

I have two customers one with a Sabre and one with an Ericson both deep fins and both hit solid granite in the summer of 2011 at full tilt. Both exceeding 6 knots. On the Sabre there was a broken wrist they hit so hard.. Both boats went from six knots to zero in a split second.

The boats were surveyed, no damage found to hull or grid structure and the lead patched up in two days and they were back sailing... Some boats take the hits and some won't.

I have pictures of a 40+/- Hunter that hit a ledge HARD. Took a pumpkin sized gouge out of the lead. They dropped the keel to be sure everything was fine. No hull damage and the keel stub was a full 1"+ thick.... Gotta say I was pretty impressed with that hit especially with all the Hunter bashing that goes on...

When you hit in Maine it is solid. Despite this I only know of one J Boat and a poorly maintained Pearson 26 that lost a keel. I know we are known for our classics up here but the vast majority of boats sailing in Maine waters use bolted on external keels. Hundreds of boats hit ledges in Maine every year without the dire consequences depicted in this thread..

Island Packet is still doing encapsulated keels (cement last time I saw one with a gaping hole) and Caliber was but they are now out of business..

As has been said there is no perfect keel...
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Old 17-12-2012, 20:53   #74
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

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Ummm until you hit a solid granite ledge in Maine with cement ballast. Next your boat sits on the hard for nearly the entire sailing seasons trying to dry out the cement ballast that has absorbed sea water. When the yard finally thinks it is dry they repair the hole. That winter the keel freezes and splits because even after a month + it was still not totally dry.... Under pressure in the water the ocean moves in but on the hard you depend upon gravity for it to dry out. Here in the land of solid granite we see lots of boats hit ledges. Some of the boats that fair the worst and take the most time to repair are the ones that are encapsulated because they can absorb water. This is especially true of the ones with pig iron and cement ballast, which a quite a number of boats with encapsulated ballast seem to have... An encapsulated keel in Maine would be one of my last choices for this reason alone. I don't want to miss half a season trying to dry out my keel..

I have two customers one with a Sabre and one with an Ericson both deep fins and both hit solid granite in the summer of 2011 at full tilt. Both exceeding 6 knots. On the Sabre there was a broken wrist they hit so hard.. Both boats went from six knots to zero in a split second.

The boats were surveyed, no damage found to hull or grid structure and the lead patched up in two days and they were back sailing... Some boats take the hits and some won't.

I have pictures of a 40+/- Hunter that hit a ledge HARD. Took a pumpkin sized gouge out of the lead. They dropped the keel to be sure everything was fine. No hull damage and the keel stub was a full 1"+ thick.... Gotta say I was pretty impressed with that hit especially with all the Hunter bashing that goes on...

When you hit in Maine it is solid. Despite this I only know of one J Boat and a poorly maintained Pearson 26 that lost a keel. I know we are known for our classics up here but the vast majority of boats sailing in Maine waters use bolted on external keels. Hundreds of boats hit ledges in Maine every year without the dire consequences depicted in this thread..

Island Packet is still doing encapsulated keels (cement last time I saw one with a gaping hole) and Caliber was but they are now out of business..

As has been said there is no perfect keel...
As far i know the logical way after such a collision and damage is to haul the boat as soon as posible in your area , many cant do that if you are in a remote location , and dry the keel and make the proper repairs and dont let the cement absorb much water if is cement and if is lead no worrys , now saying this i can asure that making a rebuild repair in a fin keel counting with droping keel , mast, bolts, sometimes with hard surgery in the interior and so on is far more expensive this days compared to dry a hole in a encapsulated keel.

In Maine maybe everybody hit things at 6 or 7 knots with fin keels everyday , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 times ? now maybe you can explain why a Bavaria loose their keel , or the cape fear 38, or the beneteau 40 , or the J boat, because there is a reason somewhere else , and i say is
1, bad construction practiques
2 bad design
3 lack of strong suports
4 repeated grounding or collisions
5 bad luck

is just a sum of factors i guess, maybe in Maine everybody choose fin keels , here is a mix , we have full keels and fin keels , and i guess what?

BTW the Hunter owner you mention do the right thing, expensive but peace of mind , not many do that in case of worrys or problems.

I prefer to spend a couple of months drying a keel that to be in the midle of nowhere with a ugly crack inside and worry about the keel.
And 6 months in the hard is lets say , here for a 40 ft boat is about 2700 u$ for the whole season , in the hipothetical scenario that the laminate in the keel is holed, if not take the same as repair a punch in the lead with epoxy ... Cheers...
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Old 17-12-2012, 21:50   #75
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Re: Fin Keel Strength ?

Baveria Yachts - YouTube


Just found this in youtube , min 8.48 show the asembly of a fin keel in a new Bavaria, where is the STUB?¿?¿?¿?
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