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Old 28-11-2012, 20:04   #46
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I salute your vessel , but its not the norm Atoll and it confirms exactly what I said.

Me I like a strong functional AND pretty vessel. After all its my " fancy"

Dave
"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

i've all allways been a sheperd,rather than a ................
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Old 28-11-2012, 20:09   #47
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Noelex, walk around las palmas ( well last week ) walk around Port Vauban, walk around les Sables , Brest , visit dusseldorf or Southampton, tell me how many metal sailboats under 50 feet you saw. Then remove Ovni and alubat, now do that again. You will not need more then one hand.

Sheesh.

Dave
Why choose boatshows as the population to sample, when the discussion is about impact strength?

Boats in boat shows are largely destined to adorn marinas. Impact strength is scarcely a consideration; if any idiot hits you, your insurance companies sort it out.

Surely the population to sample would be the boats actually engaged in cruising in places and under conditions where impact strength is a recurring (and life threatening) issue?

Your argument that boats hardly ever hit anything seems equally misplaced, given the thread topic.
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Old 28-11-2012, 20:27   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Why choose boatshows as the population to sample, when the discussion is about impact strength?

Boats in boat shows are largely destined to adorn marinas. Impact strength is scarcely a consideration; if any idiot hits you, your insurance companies sort it out.

Surely the population to sample would be the boats actually engaged in cruising in places and under conditions where impact strength is a recurring (and life threatening) issue?

Your argument that boats hardly ever hit anything seems equally misplaced, given the thread topic.
I was countering you view of using the US. That's all. I seen few metal boats under 50 in the Caribbean, I Seen few in OZ , is seen some in France.

Europe is the largest sailing ground in the world, it probably makes more small metal sailboats then any where else, yet still they are thin on the ground , there's a reason for that.

Boat shows are a magnet to all types. It's facetious to say its just marina queens.

For a sample look at say major rallies. , look at world ARC , look at the illes du soleil rally, etc etc.

Name two well know non aluminium non French metal builders regularly building under 50 foot

Dave
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Old 28-11-2012, 20:31   #49
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

Coming up the C&D canal I managed to hit a submergeded piling at 7 knots. It picked us up about a foot. Kind of upsetting. When we hauled I saw no indication of where we hit. Steel boat, 44,000lbs, one inch shoe, quarter inch plate, integral tanks.

If the steel boat is built right to start with, and too many are not, it is easily maintained and tough as nails, which is sorta redundant.

Any boat poorly built is a problem. So most of this is apples and oranges and rutabagas. It's in the build, not the material.

I sail north, rocks and ice. Steel works for me. Good alloy would be ok too, but expensive. We walked away from an alloy boat a few years ago because welds were inconsistent and sometimes poor.

How can you tell, by looking, how good a fg hull is? How strong it is?
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Old 28-11-2012, 20:36   #50
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

I spent the greater part of my childhood in the belly of my aluminum boat with my father during her original build. There is no doubt that I am biased toward this type of construction. I am sure that if my father had chosen ANY other material I would love this boat just the same.

I do believe aluminum construction has some advantages over fiberglass but I do not consider puncture resistance of the hull to be a large one. I suppose that my hull does have some crash survival advantage but I believe that a thick and solid FG hull is more than strong enough for our cruising boats.

For me (a person who welds) the reasons to have an aluminum (or Steel) boat centers around the ability to attach components and fittings in a permanent and leak proof way. It is just wonderful to be able to weld a nice over-sized hunk of metal (chain plates, bow rollers, stanchions, pad eyes, tabernacles, cleats, etc.) to my deck or house (or ANYWHERE) and know that it is never gonna need re-bedding or re-fastening. These components become part of the boat and require no further attention (at least not in my lifetime).

If I wanted perfect glossy paint, I would not want a metal boat.
If I wanted A shore power connected live aboard, I would not want an Aluminum boat.
If I wanted a smooth round bilge, I would not be able to afford a metal boat.
If I wanted to lie naked on my decks, I would not want a metal boat.
If I wanted the look of a fancy production boat (molded, smooth, built in shapes etc.) I would not want a metal boat.

Jeez, maybe I need to sell my boat and get a plastic one!........Naaaa.

Steve
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Old 28-11-2012, 20:56   #51
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I was countering you view of using the US. That's all. I seen few metal boats under 50 in the Caribbean, I Seen few in OZ , is seen some in France.

Europe is the largest sailing ground in the world, it probably makes more small metal sailboats then any where else, yet still they are thin on the ground , there's a reason for that.

Boat shows are a magnet to all types. It's facetious to say its just marina queens.

For a sample look at say major rallies. , look at world ARC , look at the illes du soleil rally, etc etc.

Name two well know non aluminium non French metal builders regularly building under 50 foot

Dave
I just don't follow your argument. It seems to be everywhere. "Under 50 feet" keeps cropping up, for instance, for reasons not clear to me.

Frequently in your posts on this and similar topics you instance the preferences of the majority, as if there were a sort of 'wisdom of crowds' which was a reliable gauge to objective questions of fitness for purpose, let alone technical issues like impact strength.

(I would have thought this a risky proposition, given examples like the popularity/quality ratios for "reality" and daytime TV, mass preferences in respect of food, etc etc)

Yet on the other hand your "marina queen" comment seems to imply that people whose boats live in marinas are somehow not a reliable guide to what is desirable.
Surely they comprise the overwhelming majority of boat owners, and given that your arguments generally seem to defer to majority viewpoints, their preferences should settle the question?

Additionally you instance rallies, as if rally participants were somehow well placed to make technical assessments.

Given that rallies appeal disproportionately to those whose interests tend to the social, to those who see safety in numbers, and to those whose preferences are shaped by marketers and sailing mags, I'm once again not sure they're especially well qualified to rule on matters of impact strength.


Your closing challenge "Name two well know non aluminium non French metal builders regularly building under 50 foot" is a complete puzzle.

Is there a prize for guessing right? I'm not sure why else you would ask such a convoluted question ... (and 'non aluminium' seems particularly quirky, given the thread topic)
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Old 28-11-2012, 21:07   #52
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Noelex, walk around las palmas ( well last week ) walk around Port Vauban, walk around les Sables , Brest , visit dusseldorf or Southampton, tell me how many metal sailboats under 50 feet you saw. Then remove Ovni and alubat, now do that again. You will not need more then one hand.

Sheesh.

Dave
If you walk around marinas you will not get a good idea of boats that are actually out cruising, but I also don't see why you keen are keen discount boat like Ovni, these aluminium boats are very common and popular cruising boats.
There are plenty of others
Garcia
Boreal
Kanter
Allures
Cigale
Atlantic
Besteaver

The cruising grounds tend have different boats the marina.

I am not sure arguing most popular is very constructive anyway. With most consumer products from watches to cars the most popular are generally not the best.
Porsche have a small part of the market,but their products are arguably superior to the cars from Toyota and Hyundai.
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Old 28-11-2012, 21:29   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

I just don't follow your argument. It seems to be everywhere. "Under 50 feet" keeps cropping up, for instance, for reasons not clear to me.

Frequently in your posts on this and similar topics you instance the preferences of the majority, as if there were a sort of 'wisdom of crowds' which was a reliable gauge to objective questions of fitness for purpose, let alone technical issues like impact strength.

(I would have thought this a risky proposition, given examples like the popularity/quality ratios for "reality" and daytime TV, mass preferences in respect of food, etc etc)

Yet on the other hand your "marina queen" comment seems to imply that people whose boats live in marinas are somehow not a reliable guide to what is desirable.
Surely they comprise the overwhelming majority of boat owners, and given that your arguments generally seem to defer to majority viewpoints, their preferences should settle the question?

Additionally you instance rallies, as if rally participants were somehow well placed to make technical assessments.

Given that rallies appeal disproportionately to those whose interests tend to the social, to those who see safety in numbers, and to those whose preferences are shaped by marketers and sailing mags, I'm once again not sure they're especially well qualified to rule on matters of impact strength.

Your closing challenge "Name two well know non aluminium non French metal builders regularly building under 50 foot" is a complete puzzle.

Is there a prize for guessing right? I'm not sure why else you would ask such a convoluted question ... (and 'non aluminium' seems particularly quirky, given the thread topic)
Because under 50 feet is the most common cruising boat , in fact it's now 42 feet I beleive and metal is more commonly used in semi custom larger vessels where GRP is more expensive to set up.

I draw attention to the majority of sailing boats. , many of which do long sea passages in northern latitudes. They are more then good enough.

As to popularity. Apple make a lot of smart phones, the market leader , there engineering is arguably the best , lets leave non engineered products out it it.

Marina queens in my view are people not boats. Many many capable boats are in marinas doing little.

I refer to rallies as its an identifiable group where the makes of boats are known and hence a stab at numbers can be made. One does not do say an ARC for company at sea , we never saw another vessel for three weeks. One does it because of the whole social event. They represent sailors with some ability and in my experience most partipicants are serious sailors.

As to impact strength , I reserve my opinions Until I see specific facts about specific boats. Anything else is faith

I asked for the names because very few metal boat companies are well known , even fewer do 40+ boats. Yards like Kanter and Bestevaer( actually K&M) are semi custom manufacturers building boats to extraordinary high standards with an equivalent price to match. They can't be compared to average cruising yachts the reason metal boat companies arnt well known is so few are produced

GRP appeals to a wide audience. , its a strong ,easy to maintain, cosmetically attractive material. The resulting boats are more then capable of 90 percent of the worlds cruising routes. They meet the product spec and that's why they are so numerous.

Dave
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Old 28-11-2012, 21:40   #54
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Originally Posted by noelex 77
If you walk around marinas you will not get a good idea of boats that are actually out cruising, but I also don't see why you keen are keen discount boat like Ovni, these aluminium boats are very common and popular cruising boats.
There are plenty of others
Garcia
Boreal
Kanter
Allures
Cigale
Atlantic
Besteaver

The cruising grounds tend have different boats the marina.

I am not sure arguing most popular is very constructive anyway. With most consumer products from watches to cars the most popular are generally not the best.
Porsche have a small part of the market,but their products are arguably superior to the cars from Toyota and Hyundai.
I worked extensively In the car industry and designed assembly equipment for Porsche.

If you take a like engineered car , say a Toyota Supra and a Porsche, there's very little in it.

The Porsche is a status symbol built on very clever brand marketing over many years. The equivalent Jap car has all the engineering , arguably better reliability , but no social cachet.

In practice I like engineered things so ill pick an Audi that will leave a Porsche for dust ,

In fact Porsche is a classic case of product positioning triumphing over actual factual engineering. It's like the HR versus Beneteau debate. The difference in actual quality is nowhere near the difference in price. if Porsche haved their prices their customer base wouldn't buy them.

Similarly I would argue that HR has a 10 to 15% advantage in quality outside of cosmetic finishes. And I seen the build processes closely in both factories. Yet the average HR is nearly twice the price of the equivalent sized Benny.

All you therefore do in the absence of real comparative testing is look what people use and where they go.

Dave
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Old 28-11-2012, 21:56   #55
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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I worked extensively In the car industry and designed assembly equipment for Porsche.

If you take a like engineered car , say a Toyota Supra and a Porsche, there's very little in it.

The Porsche is a status symbol built on very clever brand marketing over many years. The equivalent Jap car has all the engineering , arguably better reliability , but no social cachet.

In practice I like engineered things so ill pick an Audi that will leave a Porsche for dust ,

In fact Porsche is a classic case of product positioning triumphing over actual factual engineering. It's like the HR versus Beneteau debate. The difference in actual quality is nowhere near the difference in price. if Porsche haved their prices their customer base wouldn't buy them.

Similarly I would argue that HR has a 10 to 15% advantage in quality outside of cosmetic finishes. And I seen the build processes closely in both factories. Yet the average HR is nearly twice the price of the equivalent sized Benny.

All you therefore do in the absence of real comparative testing is look what people use and where they go.

Dave
Dave with all the respect, dont be ridiculous, many HR have the deck to hull join glassed from the inside , making a complety watertight and strong deck to hull joint, where benetau just use screws and 5200 or sika , this is just a example, and old HR`s have enough glass in hulls to build 2 beneteaus together, i cant comment about cars, but i believe Porsche made some components worth the price,,,, my 2 cents....
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Old 29-11-2012, 02:59   #56
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Dave with all the respect, dont be ridiculous, many HR have the deck to hull join glassed from the inside , making a complety watertight and strong deck to hull joint, where benetau just use screws and 5200 or sika , this is just a example, and old HR`s have enough glass in hulls to build 2 beneteaus together, i cant comment about cars, but i believe Porsche made some components worth the price,,,, my 2 cents....
I wasn't arguing that the quality is the same. I was arguing that the difference in the engineering quality isn't at all worth the huge difference in price.

Porsche could make its cars for the price of BMWs. It chooses not to. HR can't due to the intensive manual labour orientated production line.

I've also seen quite questionable practices at HR, certainly ones that I personally don't like. But the purpose of my post was not to engage in hR bashing but to illustrate that price in itself is not a good indicator of quality. Sometimes you are paying for beautiful woodwork and extensive marketing etc. equally it's just product price positioning.

Dave

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Old 29-11-2012, 10:09   #57
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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The vast majority of large scale production builders have switched to close mould , vacuum infusion with vinyl ester and exotic fibres in collision areas. European Heath,regulations have made open moulding virtually a thing of the past and low solvent vinyl ester is prevelant

Dave
Unfortunately, this allows them to build the hulls as thin as possible based on engineering calc's to save money. personally, I'll take a 1-1.25" thick chinese hand laid hull against a thin one when it comes to banging on a reef anyway.The Hi Tech hull will be a pleasure to sail though!
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Old 29-11-2012, 10:12   #58
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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I spent the greater part of my childhood in the belly of my aluminum boat with my father during her original build. There is no doubt that I am biased toward this type of construction. I am sure that if my father had chosen ANY other material I would love this boat just the same.

I do believe aluminum construction has some advantages over fiberglass but I do not consider puncture resistance of the hull to be a large one. I suppose that my hull does have some crash survival advantage but I believe that a thick and solid FG hull is more than strong enough for our cruising boats.

For me (a person who welds) the reasons to have an aluminum (or Steel) boat centers around the ability to attach components and fittings in a permanent and leak proof way. It is just wonderful to be able to weld a nice over-sized hunk of metal (chain plates, bow rollers, stanchions, pad eyes, tabernacles, cleats, etc.) to my deck or house (or ANYWHERE) and know that it is never gonna need re-bedding or re-fastening. These components become part of the boat and require no further attention (at least not in my lifetime).

If I wanted perfect glossy paint, I would not want a metal boat.
If I wanted A shore power connected live aboard, I would not want an Aluminum boat.
If I wanted a smooth round bilge, I would not be able to afford a metal boat.
If I wanted to lie naked on my decks, I would not want a metal boat.
If I wanted the look of a fancy production boat (molded, smooth, built in shapes etc.) I would not want a metal boat.

Jeez, maybe I need to sell my boat and get a plastic one!........Naaaa.

Steve
That's a cool looking boat you've got! Got any bigger pictures?
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Old 29-11-2012, 10:56   #59
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

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That's a cool looking boat you've got! Got any bigger pictures?
Thanks. Here are some pictures. The first one is from the early 1980's in her original configuration. In my profile, you will find an album with more pics.

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Old 29-11-2012, 11:10   #60
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Re: Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength

That's the same boat?
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