Ferro Cement Hulls ?

[awab]

hello billau

thanks again for your energie.
what you see in this link " this picture " is not the chicken wire. Its only the screen for the water inlet of the water cooling system for the keel cooler.
I understand that the picture could mislead you.
Let assume the boat is more and less build right and now I have to solve certain problems to make it flood again.

who has experience with oel penetration in ferro cement?

Like I said before I will not race it or sail it arround the world. Only want to make it float
and sail it in moderate weather down to Panama.
The living aspect to me is more important then the performing.
I have to solve the problem of the oel leak to make the hull sound again.
The repair in the front should not be a big problem.
Another thing is the underwater paint. should I use regular pool paint. Do I need a certain primer for it.
I have very practical problems and need to make decisions.
I will start working on this project in oct.2012 and will see how it goes. Its a adventure and I am sure there are solution for every single problem. Only have to find them.

Also have a mast which is badly bend. Any ideas to get it straight. Have seen some in ebay for not so much money. Would prefer to repair mine.
Question. Has anybody experiense with straighten a mast. Perhaps its not a good idea but let me know the pros and cons

thanks again
peter

[Filofax Senior]

Oho Bill! We have fast runners here in New Zealand.....

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by Filofax Senior

Oho Bill! We have fast runners here in New Zealand.....

G'day John,

Good to hear you got the book so quickly...Aussie post could learn from NZ post
Have a look at Chapter 6, The Care And Repair Of Ferro-Cement Boats, Page 128, where Colin Brookes tells “The Story Of Chase, A 50' Ketch”.
After reading the section and checking the pictures, have a look at the pictures of Peters boat, the section of hull where the cement is gone Then let us all know if you agree with me and what I think of Peters boat.

From that picture, I can see no-way that FC applied to the outside of the hull could bond with the FC on the inside of the hull completly incasing the armature in FC...I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Peter, I know nothing about straightening damaged masts, why don't you just scrap it and buy another mast from a boat wrecking yard? Apparently there are quite a few large boat/yacht wrecking yards in the States.

Now about FC yacht building. Below I have linked to a couple of videos of the proper construction of a FC yacht. I do not mean to be rude in saying this Peter but if I were to chose a yacht between your yacht and the yacht being built in the videos below, to cross a river in, never mind any seas/oceans, Guess which yacht I would choose and no! You don't get a Cigar for choosing the yacht being built by the Spanish speaking bloke

You can clearly see the builder has followed the tried and proven method of building a FC yacht. He has followed the plans and instructions, used the right materials for the armature. Rod and twisted Chickenwire, and the Chickenwire is hand tied to the Rod frame. There is NO punched plate anywhere in the armature.

The Armature Video will open in a new full size window.

In this video, I'm betting the builder is following the instructions for the plastering of the armature.

The Plastering Video again the video will open in a full size window.

Would I trust this FC vessel to safely take me anywhere I wanted to go Bet your last two cents I would. By the look of things the builder has stuck to the plans and build instructions, so he will have a safe sea-going boat...When the time comes, I hope I can find a FC yacht that has been built by such a builder as the one above...Backyard builder or not

Bill
Australia

[awab]

dear bill and the others

I have to say again the picture you are referring is the water intake of the keel cooler.

lets assume the boat is build right.
I need help with my repairs.
1. the front damage

what kind of cement
what kind of sand
ratio water, sand cement
bonding agent old to new cement

2.what solution are for the oel penetration.

I have contact to darr from fer-a-lite. very nice guy but his material is to expensive for me.
10 cubic feet incl.shipping approx.530 us plus the cost for the resin.

English is not my mother language.
I start this project oct.2012
The yard is in North Carolina. It should be possible to find the material near a midsize town. I need the names for the material. Only portland cement has so many quallities.
Sand has all kind of numbers. etc


is there somebody did this kind of work and has experience

Flickr: awabflickr's Photostream

here are pictures of the boat.
The boat was damaged 8 years ago hidding a bridge on the icw.
Since then its stored in a yard. Rain penetrated inside and rosted out on of the fuel tanks. steal. Thats the reson for the oel penetration.

thanks again
peter
p.s. I write this the 2. time It seams the 1. time it was not posted

[Filofax Senior]

I think Peter may be right about that mesh in that hole just being an intake grill. I'd really like to see a high resolution picture (Peter, can you email me one by private mesasage in higher resolution, and several others?). In that photo are two hexagonal bolts securing the mesh, and where the third would be there iis shellgrowh or where the remains of a third bolt, perhaos sheared off. I any case there are two hexagonal headed bolts, they ust be for undoing. Wha do you think? The top right edge of the hole shows there's a distinctive curved edge to the metal plate. I See the plaster does seem to be cracking elsewhere nearby in the same picture, I expect the original hole hull finish plastered over the edges of the grill right around the hole, but would be thin and unsupported so have broken away leaving an erratic edged hole which looks like impact damage or the plaster has not adhered. I don't think either is the case, but would like to see better photos. Also if this hull was prepared with punched plate instead of chicken wire then we would see that in the damaged bow, exposed. I can make out the strands of chicken wire in the bow.

The bow. Not a problem. Bash the old cracked render out, the chicken wire is there to tie new mesh to, shape and re-cement. All go there.

Of more concern, and I think this is what is worrying Peter, is how to save the fuel-oil damaged areas of the hull. I don't have the answer for that, and Colins book doesn't really give any detailed info on methods to fix it. He does give that one example of 'Chase'. From what I can make out, it's a problem f the mix of the cement wasn't absolutely correct at the start, and th cement turning mushy when the diesel soaks into it, and th cement then goes mushy. I would need to have a decent read through to be certain. I think I read elsewhere on the net about fixing this problem but haven't found it again.

Peter, send me an email iif you can.

cheers,
John

[banyandah]

Originally Posted by Filofax Senior

The cracks shown are vertical, centrally placed on the inside of the stern. They run about to about 150 to 200 mm. up from the base of the stern. There are another couple of not so bad cracks also bleeding rust running for'ard along the centreline from the stern.

Near the bow is multiple rust bleeds, the picture with the edge of the blue water bladder shows this. The area shown is about 2ft x 1' 6". There are a numer of other running rusty water marks coming down the inside of the hull from the decking area round the boat.
John

Hi John
I built and still sail a ferro boat launched in '73, repaired it a fair bit over that time. Any bleeding of rust is cancer, any raised area or bump usually round like a washer is cancer and will need to be bashed out. Sounding with light taps of a hammer can find suspect areas as the dead sound signals cancer. Ferro is easy to repair, but just make sure first its local areas of mesh or rods, not indicative of a poorly made hull. Once saw a fellow start on one spot only to end up pretty much knocking away the whole hull. I have replaced my bow section, area on top of the bilge, and spot behind a frame where seawater sat. Seawater on both sides is trouble.
I know epoxy is not recommended as its coeefficent of expansion is differnt to steel and concrete, but I use it with success. Remesh the effected area intertwining the layers of new mesh with old with an overlap of a few inches. Make sure the bars are not heavily rusted, any heavy rusted metal will only rust more. I know, Hartley loved using 1/4" flat bar on his chines and these are a pain. I have a couple areas on the deck line that need attention about every three years. I derust, convert, prime, and bog, but they'll be back.

I found a carbon particle filler harvested from the cooling ponds of power stations and mixed this with epoxy and low slump glue powder to fill the mesh. On really big areas like the bow reconstruct, I glassed over this, running the cloth 6" - 8" over the old hull, first saturating that old area. Epoxy likes cement, soaks in well if the first coats are well diluted, or there are special products something like Everdure, thin, watery, but without the preservatives which soak in to form a good bond.

I've heard this is a no-no, but after 120,000 miles we hauled our lady out the water and sandblasted the hull. Took off all the coatings and found several weak spots which literally blew away. Saturated the hull with epoxy inside and out, then started to rebuild her. Photos here
Hope that helps
PS: Can't say I like the punched metal as reinforcement. The whole idea of ferro-cements strength lies in superfine reinforcement making the cement flexible. Guess that punched metal sheeting is galvanised, but man, what a pain to repair.

[encore]

I've had very good luck patching with West epoxy mixed with about half and half 406 filler and Portland cement powder and some fine sand. I mentioned this to JR at West System and he was a bit skeptical but I noticed later in one of their tech reports that he "sort of" endorsed it. It seems to get away from the unequal expansion. (But don't try to sand it!) One of my earlier patches was made using West epoxy and their filler and after going through the filler, Prime-Kote and Perfection top paint it is showing a crack line around the patch. I assume this is because of unequal expansion but since it is well above the waterline it's only cosmetic.

I also had an issue with a pretty large area where oil had worked its way through the hull. It's been a while but I remember filling the hull with water and solvent and dish soap and it finally came clean. Aggressive scrubbing on the outside also helped.

[banyandah]

Originally Posted by encore

I also had an issue with a pretty large area where oil had worked its way through the hull. It's been a while but I remember filling the hull with water and solvent and dish soap and it finally came clean. Aggressive scrubbing on the outside also helped.

I've had a patch of oil/fuel? leaching through in engine room area for yonks. Hull pings when tapped, and sandblasting showed this area to be hard, so outside of solvent washing the area before antifouling, I haven't had a problem. Maybe its not as bad as others.

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by awab

dear bill and the others

I have to say again the picture you are referring is the water intake of the keel cooler.

I must admit...I have never seen a keel cooler on a FC sailboat or any other FC boat. That does not mean a keel cooler could not be fited to a FC boat, just that "I" have never seen one on a FC boat.

lets assume the boat is build right.

Personally, I asume nothing with any boat. My life depends on the boat so I would have any boat I'm looking at buying checked-out/surveyed by a surveyor experenced with surveying boats of glass, timber, steel, alloy, ferro or whatever materila the boat is built from.

I need help with my repairs.
1. the front damage
what kind of cement
what kind of sand
ratio water, sand cement
bonding agent old to new cement

“3 buckets of clean washed sand to 2 buckets of Portland cement to one bucket water”

The ideal mortar composition seems to be Portland cement, pozzolan (fly ash) and basalt sand

For bonding new FC to old FC, soak the area being worked, the old area, with PVA (good old wood glue) Just Before plastering.

2.what solution are for the oel penetration.

I would hammer out the oil dammaged sections of FC and replace/replaster with new FC.

I have contact to darr from fer-a-lite. very nice guy but his material is to expensive for me.
10 cubic feet incl.shipping approx.530 us plus the cost for the resin.

English is not my mother language.
I start this project oct.2012
The yard is in North Carolina. It should be possible to find the material near a midsize town. I need the names for the material. Only portland cement has so many quallities.
Sand has all kind of numbers. etc

Peter, your English is much better than my Italian

is there somebody did this kind of work and has experience

Flickr: awabflickr's Photostream

here are pictures of the boat.
The boat was damaged 8 years ago hidding a bridge on the icw.
Since then its stored in a yard. Rain penetrated inside and rosted out on of the fuel tanks. steal. Thats the reson for the oel penetration.

thanks again
peter
p.s. I write this the 2. time It seams the 1. time it was not posted

I will once again advise you to buy the Ferro Cement Boat Book Peter. Better still, contact Hartley Marine and talk over your boat problems with them...Yet Better Still...Have a FC surveyor from Hartley or Roberts do a survey on your boat, then work from their advice.
Most visitors/members to fourms are people seeking advice on various matters, I'm sure most of them mean well but...few have the expertise to advise others on most problems...That's why they visit fourms seeking advice.

A bit of well meaning friendly advice for you Peter...If you can not afford to buy the FC book, Ferro-Cement Boats, or have a survey done on your boat, by a surveyor expert in FC boats, then perhaps the boat you have is beyond your means for repairing and maintenance a large yacht...Looking after any large boat properly IS pretty expensive
I can buy a 50' FC ketch here in Australia for under $30,000AU (it only needs the running rigging and sails checked/replaced) but I don't think I could maintain and look after such a large yacht on my pension and, I do not want to spend all my savings, on properly maintening the Ketch so, I don't believe I'll be buying that bargain 50' FC Ketch. The boat I buy will be big enough to house me in comfort and I'll be able to maintain it properly out of my pension and savings but it won't break me at the bank...I hope

Good luck with everything Peter,

Bill
Australia

[BillAU]

There ya go Peter, banyandah is back and he has a lot of experence with FC boats

Do you mind if I PM you banyandah?

Cheers,

Bill

[awab]

thanks you
you guys are good to me.

This picture with the water inlet created quite a confusion.
I will post a part of the survey how the boat was build by stan huntingford.

So far I god this infos


1. Portland type 2 cement, pref quartz sand. 2 to 3 parts sand 1 part cement (that is for pure 1to3mm sand) , water just to make it dirt "wet".
Not saying anything about the primer (bonding agent) but good cleaning, sand blasting or grinding (whatever)
Keep it moist a month afterwards..

one question to banyandah

first compliment to the work you did. I also think carefully sandplasting is a fast and easy way to clean a fc hull.

What did you do after the sandplasting. Did you used a primer. What kind.
what do you guys think about normal poolpaint.

so the question. After cleaning the hull
what should I do before antifouling.

I had a cement pool once for 10 years and pool paint was holding up quite well. this pool water is certainly more aggresive then seawater.


By the way.

naturally I been hammering on my oel saturated spots. they sounded ok to me.
What is the oel doing to the cement anyway. I my case the oel traveled after the hullout. After the rain water did the damage to the steal tank. This means to me the armature should be ok. Saturated with diesel oel.
If I get it water tide from the outside not harm should be done. It would be different
if salt water would have been penetrated long time from the outside. This would indicate that saltwater traveled to the armature.

There is alway the theme about the money. A bigger boat cost more.
If you have a live in the states or even more complicated in europe this is true. Also if you have to employ people doing the work for you.
But if you live in central or south america where labour is much more affortable thinks changing. There is also the chance to make sometimes money with a bigger boat. The things like radar, gps, pc, wc, wind, generator and and and is the same on a bigger boat then a smaler. Only on a smaler boat you dont have the space.
I am agree that hullout,paint etc is more. But this are not the main expense. very often you get a better deal on the big boat stuff then on the little boat stuff.
new the big boat stuff is very costly. used it is not like this.

[awab]

one more think

do you guys think I need to weld the new rebar to the old rebar in my repair.
Or is it ok to take a wire to connect them.

thanks

so many question
peter

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by awab

I will post a part of the survey how the boat was build by stan huntingford.

I don't wish to derail an excellent thread but I'm really curious about this. There is a Stan Huntingford who is from Vancouver BC and an accomplished naval architect. He designed my sailboat as well as quite a number of others, most famously the Slocum 43. I've never heard of him building a boat so I'm quite fascinated.

[awab]

dear hummingway

you are right. He was the navel architect for ozma. He personal did not build the boat. Its build in a boat yard in CA.

I have to make a copy of the survey I have which is made in 2002 or 2003. I will post it in the moment I am back. Dont have it with me in the moment.

I am renovating an old farm house in Italy. I tell you a lot of cement is used there too.

I try to get this house done without heating, window, doors but a nice summer kitchen and an aery bedroom. Here we have basically no rain or bad weather over the entire summer.
With the money I safe I will do the FC boat to make a place in the winter in the Caribbean.
I made the decision to divide my budjet.
Little by little it will work out. I hope.

By the way

Bill I got my first FC book.
Written by Bruce Bingham. Great book, very detailed.

When it comes to actual repairing the problems I have it is not helping enough.

One thing is to build a boat from new. Other is to make repairs under certain Rules.

1. rule- do not spend to much money. There are so many details and everything is very expensive but has nearly always a cheaper solution with time and thinking.

2. rule-know what you want do to with the boat.
I need more a comfortable living space on anchor behind a island then a high tec race boat.
Sure I want to move but not all the time and 15 knots of wind max 20 is ok with me but no more if I can prevend it. I see the boat more as a house on the water with the possibility to change the location in good weather.

Hope I hear more of your ideas

peter

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by awab

Bill I got my first FC book.
Written by Bruce Bingham. Great book, very detailed.

When it comes to actual repairing the problems I have it is not helping enough.

One thing is to build a boat from new. Other is to make repairs under certain Rules.

I'm now to bleeding old to even think of building a boat Peter, (it would take to long to build) so buying an older boat is the way to go...for me

1. rule- do not spend to much money. There are so many details and everything is very expensive but has nearly always a cheaper solution with time and thinking.

I fully agree with you on that point Peter

2. rule-know what you want do to with the boat.
I need more a comfortable living space on anchor behind a island then a high tec race boat.
Sure I want to move but not all the time and 15 knots of wind max 20 is ok with me but no more if I can prevend it. I see the boat more as a house on the water with the possibility to change the location in good weather.

Hope I hear more of your ideas

peter

Sounds like you and I both want a similar boat for the same/similar reasons Peter. i.e. A comfortable home on the water that we can move from place to place...weather permitting, when we want to move-on
The problem with weather...It dos not always behave as we would like it to behave...Mother nature has a mind of her own and, like other seamen, I want my boat to be as safe as possible when Mother nature turns nasty
Having been through a few real bad hurricanes at sea, are their any good hurricanes I want a boat that will, hopefully, see me safely through the storms as well as being comfortable to live aboard.

Cheers for now Peter,

Bill
Australia